SOE loses Star Wars MMOG license and Chief Creative Officer. Allegedly. - Page 3

Utnayan · 03-23-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duppin

Cue Utnayan in 3...2...1...

Koster is gone.

The Star wars license isn't.

There you go. Rumor done.

Zaniel · 03-23-2006, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fender

SWG should go in the MMOG textbook under "what happens when you try too many rewrites".

More precisely, SWG is what happens when you have an idealogue in charge of game design. It also doesn't help if his past rep allows him to make decisions that a normal development team would raise their eyebrows to and say "wtf is that shit?".

Ant farm/social experiment my ass, not with my development dollars/IP thank you sir.

Bizanich · 03-23-2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaniel

Ant farm/social experiment my ass, not with my development dollars/IP thank you sir.

I liked Ultima Online..

/tips a 40 for Designer Dragon

The Hiram Key · 03-23-2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neric

SWG was initially based on Brad McQuaid's concept to fix was "wrong" with EQ. It failed and everyone with previous experience on the vision (tm), expected it to fail. Unfortunately there seems to be no way to repair a game that was broken from very beginning, so the decision to pull the license to prevent further damage was logical.

It really makes me wonder when people praise McQuaid as the savior of online gaming when his last project for SoE finally gets shut down after years of struggling.

Call me crazy (or wrong) but I firmly believe / remember that SWG was Kosters baby (his "sandbox") and that it's initial success was what catapulted him into Chief Creative Officer. I didn't like SWG at release, and I didnt like it 6 months later.

Thank god I got out before all this recent bullshit went down. The only thing that SWG did better then any other game (and no other game has even come close to topping since) is in the realm of character customization.

Brad's an easy target for his Vision days, but I don't think he was in on SWG.

Lyrical · 03-23-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hiram Key

The only thing that SWG did better then any other game (and no other game has even come close to topping since) is in the realm of character customization.

The charachter customization in Coh/Cov is far beyond Swg's.

Schatze · 03-23-2006, 06:26 PM

I think I've crossed over into Opposite Land, because when I hear about these changes, my automatic assumption isn't that things are going to go to hell.

Things seem to be getting done differently over at SOE, and whoever is doing them or responsible for them, seems to know what the hell he is doing. I actually am cautiously optimistic that this change may be for the better. IF it is just a shift in what's going to happen with the game, if the changes are in keeping with what's going on elsewhere, it could be interesting.

I'm as confused as a Jehovah's Witness on his wedding night. I just don't know what to think anymore.

Ossoi · 03-23-2006, 06:30 PM

How did Koster manage to stay in that job for so long anyway? After all he was the one that decided to turn "Star Wars into Chefs and Mangina Dancers in Space".

More worryingly why is Koster held in such high regard by the rest of the industry? That his peers tend to trip over eachother to get pearls of koster-wisdom doesn't fill me with much confidence.

Utnayan · 03-23-2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ossoi

How did Koster manage to stay in that job for so long anyway? After all he was the one that decided to turn "Star Wars into Chefs and Mangina Dancers in Space".

More worryingly why is Koster held in such high regard by the rest of the industry? That his peers tend to trip over eachother to get pearls of koster-wisdom doesn't fill me with much confidence.

Same thing with Peter Molyneux. Both are washed up has beens. In the case of Koster though, he never was anyone to begin with as far as I am concerned.

Seems all you have to do to become a well known designer these days is write a great design doc, hype it to shit, cut half the features, and when it comes to following through on actually implementing any of it, fall on your ass and move on to the next project before anyone with a pulse lets it sink in they suck.

With that said, about 80% of us here have awesome ideas about game design on paper. It's following through with a solid implementation that counts. How these people get so popular via key note speeches and self propelled bullshit, and people buy it, is beyond me.

Mkopec1 · 03-23-2006, 06:42 PM

I was taking a shit about 20 min ago enjoying my issue of CGW and I read an interview with Koster.

Here is a quote speaking on both changes in Ultima and the recent changes in SWG...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koster

Both of these changes were initiatives by the game designers on the team at the time. I know that for a fact, though I wasnt involved in either one. Management isnt really that interested in the specifics of the game systems-theyre interested in results.

Diffrent designers have diffrent takes on things. Theyre still after the same goal, which is entertaining users. Even the bean counters know thats what you have to do to keep players coming back month after month.

Ossoi · 03-23-2006, 06:43 PM

Peter Molyneux has a far better track record of making not only great games but also innovative games, eg Populous, Theme Park etc. OK Black and White was over-hyped and a disappointment but thats more the fault of the games press than of his.

Koster by comparison, worked on UO and what else? I never played UO but didn't he make a bunch of changes that were pretty unpopular.

Molyneux is at least a gamer/game designer, Kosters own website admits he fell into game development by accident and its not really his lifes ambition.

beepbeepbeep · 03-23-2006, 06:44 PM

I saw the entire thing coming with SWG in beta, and steered clear of it despite following the development very closely.

In hindsight I made a wonderful decision.

Bizanich · 03-23-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ossoi

Koster by comparison, worked on UO and what else? I never played UO but didn't he make a bunch of changes that were pretty unpopular.

No, those were done by bean counters. Something needed to be done to stem the rise of the Dread Lords, but UO was still awesome due to its design by Koster.

It's where Eve takes a lot of its inspiration from (one of the devs, TomB I guess, was a PK in UO). In my opinion, anyways

I think a lot of MMO's would be better if they tried to create worlds like Koster did with UO. Yeah, I said it.

rukidding · 03-23-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beepbeepbeep

I saw the entire thing coming with SWG in beta, and steered clear of it despite following the development very closely.

In hindsight I made a wonderful decision.

\

SWG, the worst game I ever skipped.

Mkopec1 · 03-23-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ossoi

Molyneux is at least a gamer/game designer, Kosters own website admits he fell into game development by accident and its not really his lifes ambition.

Koster seems to be more of a game philosopher, rather than a designer.

Papillon · 03-23-2006, 07:55 PM

Star Wars Galaxies was a nice Sandbox type game.

You have to remember at what times SWG was planed. EQ, UO and Lineage (1) where the great names. SOE worked already on Planetside, even EQ2 was in their minds and they feared to make another EQ type of game.

So Brad McQuaid was looking at UO and the decision was made to develop a similar game. What would you do once this decision was made? First, lets see if we can get a big licence - Star Wars - and second, lets hire the people that made UO.

After all, there isn't anyone to blame for SWG. It was businesswise a logical decision to go that way. It wasn't known that you can make a similar game to one you have already, without stealing your own customers. Raph Koster was hired to go the UO way with SWG, and that's what he did. Under an extrem time pressure, as the team changed many of the main systems while in development.

There were tons of problems with the database and they had no time to finish any tools for content development.

So summing all up, SWG is garbage, but it wasn't realy anyone's fault. If anyone is to blame for it, then blame the time schedule. Which is a combined thing of SOE and Lucasarts business people. If it was just SOE, I'm sure SWG would not have been released as it was - but with two companies involved, there were lots of contracts to meet.

Koster wasn't promoted because of SWG being such an outstanding game, he was promoted because he managed to do what he was hired for, in a very difficult environment.

After all, neither SOE or Lucasarts, nor Brad or Raph would make that sum of mistakes again. Just let it rest in peace and file it under experience in a still very new market.

If Raph in fact left SOE, my best wishes to him. While I don't agree with many of his ideas, there are other players out there that love them. Even sandboxes. That's just not the type of game for star wars. We all know now.

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A bit of news arround the SOE rumors and SWG - Game Play Discussion - Star Wars Galaxies Official Forums	This thread	Refback	11-22-2006 01:45 PM

03-23-2006, 06:26 PM	#36 (permalink)
Schatze Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,618 -3 Internets	I think I've crossed over into Opposite Land, because when I hear about these changes, my automatic assumption isn't that things are going to go to hell. Things seem to be getting done differently over at SOE, and whoever is doing them or responsible for them, seems to know what the hell he is doing. I actually am cautiously optimistic that this change may be for the better. IF it is just a shift in what's going to happen with the game, if the changes are in keeping with what's going on elsewhere, it could be interesting. I'm as confused as a Jehovah's Witness on his wedding night. I just don't know what to think anymore.

03-23-2006, 06:30 PM	#37 (permalink)
Ossoi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 577 -14 Internets	How did Koster manage to stay in that job for so long anyway? After all he was the one that decided to turn "Star Wars into Chefs and Mangina Dancers in Space". More worryingly why is Koster held in such high regard by the rest of the industry? That his peers tend to trip over eachother to get pearls of koster-wisdom doesn't fill me with much confidence.

03-23-2006, 06:43 PM	#40 (permalink)
Ossoi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 577 -14 Internets	Peter Molyneux has a far better track record of making not only great games but also innovative games, eg Populous, Theme Park etc. OK Black and White was over-hyped and a disappointment but thats more the fault of the games press than of his. Koster by comparison, worked on UO and what else? I never played UO but didn't he make a bunch of changes that were pretty unpopular. Molyneux is at least a gamer/game designer, Kosters own website admits he fell into game development by accident and its not really his lifes ambition.

03-23-2006, 06:44 PM	#41 (permalink)
beepbeepbeep is an honorable man Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,020 -1 Internets	I saw the entire thing coming with SWG in beta, and steered clear of it despite following the development very closely. In hindsight I made a wonderful decision.

03-23-2006, 07:55 PM	#45 (permalink)
Papillon Registered Butterfly Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cologne Posts: 81 +1 Internets	Star Wars Galaxies was a nice Sandbox type game. You have to remember at what times SWG was planed. EQ, UO and Lineage (1) where the great names. SOE worked already on Planetside, even EQ2 was in their minds and they feared to make another EQ type of game. So Brad McQuaid was looking at UO and the decision was made to develop a similar game. What would you do once this decision was made? First, lets see if we can get a big licence - Star Wars - and second, lets hire the people that made UO. After all, there isn't anyone to blame for SWG. It was businesswise a logical decision to go that way. It wasn't known that you can make a similar game to one you have already, without stealing your own customers. Raph Koster was hired to go the UO way with SWG, and that's what he did. Under an extrem time pressure, as the team changed many of the main systems while in development. There were tons of problems with the database and they had no time to finish any tools for content development. So summing all up, SWG is garbage, but it wasn't realy anyone's fault. If anyone is to blame for it, then blame the time schedule. Which is a combined thing of SOE and Lucasarts business people. If it was just SOE, I'm sure SWG would not have been released as it was - but with two companies involved, there were lots of contracts to meet. Koster wasn't promoted because of SWG being such an outstanding game, he was promoted because he managed to do what he was hired for, in a very difficult environment. After all, neither SOE or Lucasarts, nor Brad or Raph would make that sum of mistakes again. Just let it rest in peace and file it under experience in a still very new market. If Raph in fact left SOE, my best wishes to him. While I don't agree with many of his ideas, there are other players out there that love them. Even sandboxes. That's just not the type of game for star wars. We all know now.