Raids/Groups: Lifeforce Merging...bizzare, but possible?

[Kolle]

I'd love to hear the first thought from anyone reading the title of this post. This is something I've been kicking around for quite some time. If I see a problem with something I like then I tend to tumble it around in my head until I think of a way to solve it. Yeah, I'm not always right and since I don't actually work for any of these gaming companies I won't ever see it implimented anyways, but hey the servers are down right now.

This is born out of my dissatisfaction with certain group/raid mechanics, but especially healing and supporting. I have a feeling that if something drastic isn't done we'll end up with the same types of problems in any major mmorpg title. I set out to tackle this issue with healing in mind, but the end result impacts every possible class.

There are two things I'd like to happen with future mmorpgs:

1. No dedicated healing class

2. A better system of healing/combat

I know many games will keep healing, but I think there is a place for excellent games without healing that also have the scale of EQ1, EQ2, WoW, etc... I'm not posting this to advocate #1, but instead to explain my thoughts on #2. Pardon me as I grab a nearby magazine or shampoo bottle, whichever is closest.


The Source of my Sadness

I think many healers will agree with me. When a healer is in a group or a raid their focus must be on keeping people alive. This demands much of their attention. Due to the way these games function the end result is a player staring at health bars for hours. They click back and forth, or however they switch targets in the particular game, and mash their heal buttons. There are some nuances here and there between games, but eventually it's all boiled down to a bitter mush.

I can't express how depressing it is to think back on much of my playtime as a healer and realize I didn't even get to see the dungeons. I hardly had time to watch mobs and players fight each other. I was watching a little colored bar go up and down. It's satisfying to keep people alive and beat encounters, but this can be a major drawback. From game to game details are very different, but one problem is that healing can get boring. Regardless of the different tools you create for a healer to use the end result is the same.

The path mmorpgs seem to be on now is to simply add complexity (keke). Give the mobs more ailment inducing skills and provide healers with more ailment removing spells. Give the healers extra psuedo-heals in the form of wards, shields, regens, and whatever the hell else. Eventually this whole thing is going to be so bloated that not only will we keep staring at health bars, but the entire experience will be nothing but tedium, stress, and constipation rolled into a single package.


This is what happens when Servers are down

So I think of ways around my above gripes. One extremely easy solution would be to allow healers to just push a single button and automatically heal whoever needed it. You'd go through the entire dungeon without needing to even look at people. I think there was a macro in WoW that allowed something like that, but I don't know if it's still usable. This does nothing but make the problem worse, however. It solves one issue while opening up a pipeline of boredom for an entirely different reason.

This is where I get the idea, "why not treat healing/support more like every other class in terms of combat?" Games are different, but for the sake of keeping it stupid simple let's consider two types of classes: Damage and Support. When you group up and when you form raids (I imagine there would need to be a minimum needed to engage this feature; maybe, maybe not) you could convert the group/raid over to this feature. It's not something that applies to solo play.


Some Details

So what the fuck am I talking about?

When you engage this feature everyone in the group/raid merges their life/power/status. You fight together as a single force, yet remain separate (this isn't Voltron). No, it's not some huge lifebar that represents the total health points of everyone. It's not a single bar of anything. It's much, much more interesting than that, but it requires some explaining.

I mentioned Damage and Support earlier. Each type is represented by a visual effect and a sound. These can be customized by the player. Each visual effect and sound signifies the contribution from each player in the group/raid. The 'presence' or intesity of each effect/sound is determined by the actual number of players from that archetype and their current need for attention. You can choose to monitor (and react accordingly) using either visual effect or sound (or both). When you cast spells under these circumstances they directly effect the combined lifeforce, you don't target a player.

The settings will display/play at varrying levels in order to inform you of how your group/raid is doing at that moment:

Subtle - Noticable - Obvious - Blatant


Scenario #1

You're a healer (Support). You're sitting in front of your computer raiding with your guild. There are 0 health bars on the screen. You use visual effects. You plug yourself into the raid's lifeforce, allowing you to see and interact with it. When out of combat everyone appears normal. Mobs that you see at a distance appear normal. When in combat things will change depending on what you're fighting and how serious the situation is. According to the visual effects you chose beforehand (you see them this way, no one else...no one else has to see them at all if they choose), you will receive indicators that report the status of your group/raid's lifeforce.

There are at least two ways to see these: on the players or as a UI function. If it's on the players then what you will witness is a slight visual effect. It won't be some enormous light show. For example, if your damage classes are being hurt then you will notice visual effects on random members (damage class or not) akin to a spell effect. You control how intense they are. Picture in your mind that you notice a nearby groupmate covered in a very slight spell effect of bleeding cuts or slashes (remember all of these settings are predetermined by the player). According to your settings, the intensity of this effect will allow you to immediately know how bad your group/raid's lifeforce is damaged and who the mob(s) are focusing on the most. This allows you to know which heals to use and which other spells you should be casting that aren't heals. For example if the mob is conentrating on your damage classes then you can cast counters to stunt the onslaught. The more serious the problems are, the more widespread these effects will be. You can also choose to receive this information by looking at the mob(s) instead of players or both.

As a UI function the last thing we want to do is duplicate staring at health bars. Consider having windows in the middle/side of your screen with a low opacity. You control the specifics of how they look and function. The color and effects these windows produce will immediately give you the knowledge you would gain by looking at players. Since we are using signals and colors without regulating them to 40 individual bars, you can pay attention to the world/dungeon/fight (peripheral vision would easily accomplish this).


Scenario #2

You're a buffer/debuffer (Support). You're situation is similar to the healer above, but you use sound instead of visual effects. You chose the sound of a sword hitting something to represent damage classes (there can be many different versions used together in this; sword hits wooden shield, sword hits leather armor, sword hits metal armor, etc...). A low, single hit tells you one thing. Hearing multiple strikes at an increased volume lets you know things are getting serious. Once learning this system, and sound/music is an easy thing to pick up for humans, you can react to the battle casting your buffs and debuffs where appropriate.



To Further Complicate Things

The above is a very basic and simple explanation of what's floating in my head. Toss into the mix another 5-10 classes. Consider hundreds or thousands more effects, both positive and negative, that you learn gradually as you level in the game going from simple to complex.

When you cast spells that are meant for support in some manner you don't have to target anyone. This eliminates one problem. In order to avoid the problems you get like with a WoW heal macro, there is another layer to this feature. The visual effects and sounds will indicate to you what other support classes in your raid are doing. Not necessarily every single one, but the important things that will queue your actions. Acting and reacting according to what your friends are doing and what the mob is doing is how you function in all of this. All classes are subject to this, but in different ways. A damage class can use different indicators and would react differently. Same goes for anything not support. Their indicators may be based more on what the mob is doing, though.



I may have not explained this well enough to get across what I'm thinking. In the event that this all sounds silly and stupid then please just consider me a genius and assume it's the most awesomest idea ever presented.

[Kiely]

It's not very feasible on paper in terms of D&D to be able to pull some powerranger megazoid thing, where it would be feasible would be somewhere there isn't going to be your typical raid "healer".
What I mean is its a nice idea to just use visual's to control where heals and buffs are needed and in games like WoW or EQ you couldn't use some light or effect way to do it..
It's ok leveling to 60 as a healer but raiding is a drag. If they did away with health indicators and buff windows like your suggestion, it'd be better working around it in a different matter you suggested - more realistic / calls for heals /buffs / people actually bleeding/broken/limbs.. trouble is the DPS of a boss is so huge to keep track of they are only going to be spam healing anyway.

[Kolle]

Boss dps shouldn't be huge. It should be just as much about making sure he doesn't pull off certain other skills besides simply pumping out massive damage. The EQ1 days of simply increasing all the numbers by a bunch definately needs to stop.

[Zehn - Vhex]

I agree that healing needs to be rethought.

My idea is that healing should be more about preventing the mob from doing damage, then from actually healing itself.

IE: A big part of healing should be placing wards that cause mobs to reflect their damage back at them. Stunning, absorbing, miscasting, what have you. Casting a spell and making everyone around you immune to fire for 10 seconds. Casting a targeted AE that makes anyone in your targeted circle immune to damage so long as they don't leave it and you continue to channel the spell. Etc...etc...

Fights should be about how skillful you are at keeping the mob at 0 dps, not counter-balancing it.

I have no problem with playing a support role. And a big fuck you goes out to anybody and everyone who responds to this post with "LOLEZ U ROLED A CLERIC U SHUD HEAL. WNT 2 DPS BE ROUGE!!!!!" Nobody rolled a priest to play whack-a-mole.

There's something about interacting with the mobs and world around you that's so much more satisfying then interacing with UI componants. I'm not saying I don't like UI information. I like having all the information I can at my fingertips. However, I'd much rather watch a bunch of purple "817!" "716!" scroll over a mobs head as I nuke it rather then read "You nuke An Orc Centurion for 817 points of damage!" from a chat lines.

There's just something about interacting with the game world that's more fun.

I'd much rather cast "Silence" on a mob to keep it from casting for a few seconds then cast Flash Heal on the pc the mob would have nuked. I absolutely -loved- the original form of PW:S in beta because it was more about preventing damage then responding to it.

I always felt the concept of curing wounds was rather retarded to begin with. As a Cleric in DnD, most of my spells revolved around preventing damage and keeping my party from getting hurt. Cure Wounds spells were kinda just there for after the fight.

Not to mention the fact that...well...it's kinda messed up isn't it from a roleplay perspective? "HAHA! Take that giant sword up your ass, yes! 7k mortal strike, oh man that's gotten fucking suck. Bet you're just begging for the sweet release of death right? DENIED! Healed you bitch, eat that cock! Suck it deep, suck it real deep! Oh, down to 1k health again huh? Can't feel your spine? GREATER HEAL BITCH! Oh yeah, take that, you like that huh? No, you'll take agro and you'll like it!"

Just a bit off if you ask me.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Kolle

There are two things I'd like to happen with future mmorpgs:

1. No dedicated healing class

2. A better system of healing/combat

Right now the weekly game of choice among my circle is 7th Sea, it is a pencil and paper game and I think it has alot of the elements you are looking to have imported into a MMPORG.

First of all the healing available is extremely limited. At best you can hope for one heal per combat, and that heal might fail. The combat is so much more interesting than I am used to because of the choices you must make during each round with your limited number of actions. Moves have counter moves, and counter counter moves.

Once you remove the tank/healer paradigm encounters can get a whole lot more engrossing and really involve everyone more actively. Everyone gets time in the spotlight, sometimes being the tank, sometimes being the dps, sometimes providing support, always in danger.

[Surlok TP]

Originally Posted by Kiely

It's not very feasible on paper in terms of D&D to be able to pull some powerranger megazoid thing, where it would be feasible would be somewhere there isn't going to be your typical raid "healer".
What I mean is its a nice idea to just use visual's to control where heals and buffs are needed and in games like WoW or EQ you couldn't use some light or effect way to do it..
It's ok leveling to 60 as a healer but raiding is a drag. If they did away with health indicators and buff windows like your suggestion, it'd be better working around it in a different matter you suggested - more realistic / calls for heals /buffs / people actually bleeding/broken/limbs.. trouble is the DPS of a boss is so huge to keep track of they are only going to be spam healing anyway.

Don't cheapen the Constructicons incredible ability to form the Gesalt DEVASTATOR by giving merging ability credit to the power rangers,they ripped Transformers off and it's bullshit.And no I don't care if some Japanese comic did it before they even did,Japan doesn't count.

Outside of that,I have nothing to contribute to this thread.

[chu]

"healing the wounds" and "preventing damage" is the same fucking difference. Stop being a goddamn broken record.

[Dyscord]

The talk about a super hero game in the other thread got me thinking.

They should make a game where there's no healing at all. Zilch. Just self-regen.

The game is totally about preventing damage. The best example would be going back to the super hero game.

Every character would have 3 types of abilities. Offensive, defensive, and counter. Offense is self explanitory. Hit Eye laser, you shoot eye lasers at your target.

Defensive, though, is completely different, and in most cases, context sensitive. For instance, you're super power is super strength and invulnerabilty. Your side-kick can shoot the pre-mentioned eye lasers. Say the bad guy picks up and hurls a car at your side kick (eye lasers piss him off), now its time to use your defensive skills. Since your side kick is pretty offensive, and doesn't have your defensive skills, he's fucked, UNLESS YOU SAVE HIM, TO THE RESCUE! Now, if you hit your 'Block' ability, you'll leap in front of your side-kick and smash the flying car into the ground, no harm done.

Or, you can use your third ability, counter. You heroically step in front of your side-kick, catch the car, and hurl it back.

Naturally every ability would have varying power costs, chances of sucess, and weaknesses. For instance, blocking bullets is one thing (if your invulnerable) but blocking a kryptonite laser will totally fuck you. Using a green lantern shield has a very high chance of sucess, but it uses a lot of power and is kind of silly to block a few arrows in favor of conjouring a hand to knock them away.

There is NO healing. No dork standing on the back lines recovering hero's health. Its all about you reacting with the right ability at the right time to save yourself or your friends. If you fail, say you didn't hit block in time, and your sidekick becomes the hood ornament of that flying car. He's knocked down and is hurt, possibly incapacitated. Here's your chance to regen health if you stay down, but if you stay down, you can't fight, etc, and the rest of your team will get mauled without you.

This system would own, in my opinion, because its about watching the fight, not health bars. If you see the enemy charge up a laser, get ready to dodge it, block it, deflect it, etc. Choose quick, choose the best ability, etc. These defensive actions are context sensitive, based on your target, so if you're fighting multiple villains, people need to 'mark up' to help defend each other (no stupid gang rape one at a time).

Anyway, I've rambled on enough I think.

[Deris]

Originally Posted by chu

"healing the wounds" and "preventing damage" is the same fucking difference. Stop being a goddamn broken record.

Well aren't WE a feisty 04'er. Proactive Protecting != Reactive Healing.

If you know that Onyxia has Fire Damage, and quite a bit of melee damage, you throw your leet "Fire Ward of Grond" on him which doesn't take up all of the Ward Protection %, just some. Then you throw on your "Ward of Methuselah" Which also protects from melee damage - the rest of the %. Toss on a Protective Charm, have the tank run in there, while you are casting your Hex which creates openers for all of the melee, etc..

There are alot of mechanics you can go into without having to stare at health bars, and a few games already have them.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Deris

There are alot of mechanics you can go into without having to stare at health bars, and a few games already have them.

Although a balancing issue later on, I absolutely loved being a Shaman and having my ability so slow being as important as it was during Velious.

Oh fuck, two Flurry drakes, we can do this, but Team Shaman needs to be on the ball, need to get them slowed ASAP but not so soon that we bite it. Oh man, RESIST.....RESIST.......fuck I'm gonna die...one more.........

That shit was intense. I was engaged with a life and death struggle while the Clerics were casting CH at the statistically appropriate time. Drake doesn't get slowed? Wipe. Poor healing? Wipe. Who is having more fun? I bet the Clerics aren't shouting at their screen after a CH lands. FUCK YEAH BABY WOOOOOOO CH BITCH!

But I was.

[apm]

Originally Posted by Kolle

You're a buffer/debuffer (Support). You're situation is similar to the healer above, but you use sound instead of visual effects. You chose the sound of a sword hitting something to represent damage classes (there can be many different versions used together in this; sword hits wooden shield, sword hits leather armor, sword hits metal armor, etc...). A low, single hit tells you one thing. Hearing multiple strikes at an increased volume lets you know things are getting serious. Once learning this system, and sound/music is an easy thing to pick up for humans, you can react to the battle casting your buffs and debuffs where appropriate.

Why would you need to hear anything if everyone is just making one noise? I don't get this.

Also, physically watching 50 toons for slight visual effects?
Even if the game was entirely lag-less, I would think this would be incredibly stressful. What if the person is standing behind you?

Also, with requiring sound, you just cut out the deaf playerbase market.

Personally, I never have the sound on for any of these games - I listen to mp3s or watch TV while I play.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Deris

There are alot of mechanics you can go into without having to stare at health bars, and a few games already have them.

Like what? CoH?

It sounds like pipe dreams to me. Either you are watching health bars and replacing lost HP as needed or you are watching other UI elements and throwing out your preventative shit before certain attacks kill your tanks or dpser's. It would be great if we could have real time graphical damage cues or flying missiles of destruction to block with our force shields, but given what I have seen of latency, server stability and overall hardware performance across average users of these games that sounds nightmarish to attempt under current technological limitations.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Fammaden

Like what? CoH?

I think he ment games in general, not just MMPORGs.

Although I have zero hope for the game as a whole, DD0 with it's finite mana system might be on the right track. Maybe later on it'll be a component of a nonshitty game.

[Szlia]

7th Sea or a game like Halo give clues at how a mmo without healing can work: different damage types. Light wounds that regenerate super fast and critical wounds (that you get primarily through excess of light wounds) that you cannot heal on the battleground. That way you must work at damage prevention but also at damage repartition.

This system also makes the whole dungeon become a huge encounter, because reaching the boss in poor shape will do you no good. I see that as a good point, but I remember most people were not exactly fond of the LDoN raids where you had to be on your toes from start to finish. A drawback, but with some easy workarounds I am sure, is also having someone getting incapacitated within the first 15min of a 2 hours dungeon...

[fuffalo]

The benediction quest and the first aid quests are great examples that it can be fun an interactive to heal. You're completely watching the game, yet you're still healing (in a reactive way).

I'm not saying making raids like this, and I'm not saying I have the answer. But one day an MMORPG will have healing that is actually fun, and keeps you looking at the game instead of little green bars.