Raids/Groups: Lifeforce Merging...bizzare, but possible?

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by aw3s0me

reactive healing? thats already in eq2 and i love it.

EDIT: not sure on its effectiveness in the endgame though.

I've only played the first 8-9 levels of EQ2, I'd like to hear more about how the "reactive healing" works in EQ2.

[aw3s0me]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

I've only played the first 8-9 levels of EQ2, I'd like to hear more about how the "reactive healing" works in EQ2.

its simple, a templar can throw on a 'reactive heal' on a tank, its basically a buff that automatically casts a heal on whoever the buff is on when he is hit. (there is also a group version of this which stacks)

it lasts for X amount of heals or X amount of time (whichever limit is reached first).

so if im grouping in a dungeon, i just toss on a reactive on the tank, if he gets a bit too low i can top him off with a direct heal.

but at the same time i can cast a 'mark' on the mob, so whenever someone lands a hit on the mob, the player has a 20% chance of being healed for X amount.

another spell thats usefull is an impairment spell targetting any mob, and when it dies my group is AE healed for X amount. its a very mana efficient heal so i like to toss it on during multiple mob fights to keep the group topped off.


oh and we have an AE ward against magic, mental, and divine damage.

all these little things help so i dont have to directly heal the tank as often. but on raids it might be different as i have no experience in it, for all i know reactives could be utterly useless in it. i shouldn't have jumped off the EQ2 bandwagon earlier, now im trying to catchup - but having a lot of fun in the process.

EDIT: i don't see what is wrong with healers, they play a role in the game like any other class (tank, DPS, CC etc.). Some people find it fun, some people don't. This is my first healer character and I love it so far, I probably will play any healing class in any future MMOs.

[Elgonn]

There is nothing wrong with Healing. There can be something wrong with "how". Don't like staring at health bars? Make the only indicator visual on the model. There are an infinite amount of ways to change the system but negative damage will never be fundamentally wrong.

I'd much rather have them remove the aggro mechanic and add some decent AI. I dream of the raid where the guild gets attacked by 40 "players" in coordination.

[aw3s0me]

Originally Posted by Elgonn

There is nothing wrong with Healing. There can be something wrong with "how". Don't like staring at health bars? Make the only indicator visual on the model. There are an infinite amount of ways to change the system but negative damage will never be fundamentally wrong.

I'd much rather have them remove the aggro mechanic and add some decent AI. I dream of the raid where the guild gets attacked by 40 "players" in coordination.

There could be something wrong with "how" healing is, but there isn't. There is an infinite ways to change the system but it will always come back to "staring at something and punching keys". That something might not be a health bar, it might be a group member(you're still staring), it might be that reactive heal buff icon, etc.

lets face it, the idea might be refreshing, but healing the way it is in MMOs, will not be changing for a very.. VERY long time. and there is a reason for that, and thats cause right now its the best and most efficient way of healing. we don't get many of these 'healers staring' rants, and theres a reason for it.

EDIT: as for AI and where the guild gets attacked by 40 "players" in coordination: PVP.

EDIT2(for the clueless): when i say "staring at something and punching keys", i am refering to the healing class in general(as the 'something' refers to a health bar, or something similar). not how accountants are similar to rogues. sorry for the confusion.

[Elgonn]

Originally Posted by aw3s0me

EDIT: as for AI and where the guild gets attacked by 40 "players" in coordination: PVP.

Obviously. But it isn't like there are guild v. guild cross-server fests with tiered opponents for loot. I'll take a facsimile raid event as well.

The very fact that people complain shows that there is something wrong with "how" healing is done at the moment. I remember the DPS afk rants from EQ (the "how" was screwed then). Combat is more active and more inherently enjoyable now. The very praises of EQ2, CoH and healing are all about the "how".

There isn't anything wrong with Healing. There is something wrong with your role being unenjoyable.

[aw3s0me]

Originally Posted by Elgonn

Obviously. But it isn't like there are guild v. guild cross-server fests with tiered opponents for loot. I'll take a facsimile raid event as well.

The very fact that people complain shows that there is something wrong with "how" healing is done at the moment. I remember the DPS afk rants from EQ (the "how" was screwed then). Combat is more active and more inherently enjoyable now. The very praises of EQ2, CoH and healing are all about the "how".

There isn't anything wrong with Healing. There is something wrong with your role being unenjoyable.

Yes there are people complain, but so what? Everyone complains about their class. Look at any class discussion board in any game, there is constant whining and claims that their class is not fun enough - but that doesn't mean that their class is flawed right?

And yes I agree, so far I like the approach that EQ2 has taken on healing, i honestly believe that this game is a lot better than what people make it out to be.

[ChewieTobbacca]

Healing doesn't have to be completely removed, but it would be a helluva lot more fun being interactive.

The issue with traditional MMORPGs as we know it is that healing is so based on the old D&D model of party based RPG, a healer, etc. - problem is, D&D encounters do not last more than a minute or two usually - raid encounters can last a lot longer and players die even faster. To remove healing would hae to go outside the box of this system.

The preventing damage is intriguing.

For one thing, the Halo analogy is a good one - light wounds (shields), and critical wounds (after shields) could make sense and be practical. It would force a player to change damage taking to another player.

There's lots of possibilities - a game that is twitchy in terms of defensive play? If a mob is about to attack, hitting a button to block that attack would be a good change. Tougher mobs are harder to predict or may have multiple attacks or targets even. Your actual health cannot be recovered until after battle and it would remove combat healing, but would force every player to be prepared for the battle.

An example could be one where there is a dragon - the main tank has to arm himself with weapons that can avoid melee damage from the dragon as well as the flame the dragon shoots out. The other melees may opt for a magic flame resistant shield to avoid being burned - and every player would have to pay attention to hit the "Cover Self with Shield" button while doing other duties from melee, casting wards (healing job), etc.

It's not the best idea but it could be fun - it wouldn't be trivial either if it required players to *gasp* pay attention to the mob. Not only would player skill play a part, but so would items, attention, and coordination.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by aw3s0me

There could be something wrong with "how" healing is, but there isn't. There is an infinite ways to change the system but it will always come back to "staring at something and punching keys". That something might not be a health bar, it might be a group member(you're still staring), it might be that reactive heal buff icon, etc.

lets face it, the idea might be refreshing, but healing the way it is in MMOs, will not be changing for a very.. VERY long time. and there is a reason for that, and thats cause right now its the best and most efficient way of healing. we don't get many of these 'healers staring' rants, and theres a reason for it.

That is the most retarded logic I've seen today. By that logic, then being an accountant is the same thing as being a rogue in WoW. After all, all you're doing is mashing buttons, right? Fuck, playign Kings Quest I is the same as playing UT2k4...UR JUST MASHING BUTUNS AM I RITE?!?

Fuck that and fuck you for even thinking that way.

[aw3s0me]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

That is the most retarded logic I've seen today. By that logic, then being an accountant is the same thing as being a rogue in WoW. After all, all you're doing is mashing buttons, right? Fuck, playign Kings Quest I is the same as playing UT2k4...UR JUST MASHING BUTUNS AM I RITE?!?

Fuck that and fuck you for even thinking that way.

i meant it as a healer generalization in MMOs .. i didn't mean it in the way you interpreted it.

I mean, since we were having a discussion on healers in a MMO forum, i thought it would be implied that i was talking about the healing class in general ... not how the whole world 'mash butuns'. but i guess some people aren't that bright either.

but hey! flaming is the cool thing to do on this forum right? good job!

[aw3s0me]

Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

The preventing damage is intriguing.

It's not the best idea but it could be fun - it wouldn't be trivial either if it required players to *gasp* pay attention to the mob. Not only would player skill play a part, but so would items, attention, and coordination.

its going to be interesting when VG comes out with that 'click and block' system and to see how effective or 'revolutionary' it is. the start of something bigger? .. maybe

[Szlia]

I'd much rather have them remove the aggro mechanic and add some decent AI. I dream of the raid where the guild gets attacked by 40 "players" in coordination.

There is a raid encounter like that in EQ's Omens of War in isn't it?

[Abalieno]

Why not push the heresy?

No healing during combat. If you survive a fight, you'll heal for the next one, if you die, well.. you die.

I'm all for defensive skills like physical barriers, shields etc.. But it should be interesting to develop a system where all the classes are actively fighting.

[Abalieno]

By the way, I interpret Kolle's idea like an healer watching a few piles of glowing goo and poking in the eye those growing too intense to push them back to an acceptable level.

From this perspective the idea doesn't look so exciting. To better understand it we could separate it in basic patterns.

The first pattern is about grouping the players in archetypes. Applying a system like DAoC's spreadheal so that you launch your spell and it goes automatically to benefit those in need within that group (so it's about adding a degree of automatization, for less micro-management).

The second pattern is about working on a different interface so that you react to glowy effects in the 3D scene instead of health bars.

My suspect is that people would feel the need to have back a clear health bar, maybe stacked with the archetype. If the UI is moddable you'll see the players pluggin in back the old health bar and revert your idea to the previous status. Basically negating it.

Imho, it should be interesting to explore a solution that is much less UI-intensive and that is more direct and realistic. But things should proceed in steps.

For example, how to get rid completely of the health bars? Glowing characters would be just another form of the same representation, what about getting rid of them completely?

[Abalieno]

Hmm, wait a second..

Think to a PvP game only for now.

Erase completely the possibity to "target". No targeting. No UI whatsoever. Nothing at all.

Add collision detection. Create a system with a "tactical combat", without the frenetical button-mashing but where you swing your weapon directly and hit what is in front of you. Ranged weapons that behave like in reality, with realistic arcs and no "target-lock". Add spell effects with a similar target system, where you aim for a location and then throw a fireball that continues to fly till it doesn't hit something and then "explodes", shaking the ground and dealing area damage to all the enemies near the impact, setting them on fire.

Forbid completely the possibility to target an opponent and receive informations about it through the UI. You can just see your hitpoints and your mana, the number of arrows, the possibility to quickly access your spellbook and inventory, but nothing else. You cannot see the effects on your enemies (if not graphically, like the effect of a DoT spell active or an arrow stuck on their bodies) as you cannot see them on your friends.

No healing classes or abilities if not bandages and medications that can be applied ONLY out of combat and that require time to start their effect.

Add spellcaster classes with spells that affect the spatial environment: like the possibility to create protective force fields, allowing those within to be protected from ranged attacks to an extent, or the possibilty to drop "walls of fire" that damage those crossing them, or freeze a zone of grass that will make people running on it slip and tumble around (bwahahah! This would be amazing), fireballs exploding and flinging people around on fire, magical walls of stone rising and preventing the players to pass and that need to be circumvent or demolished (through "blunt" attacks or a counterspell).

Healers? Who the hell needs them.

Give them the possibility to set people on FIRE, and then give them the possibility to invoke clouds and rain around the player to counter the effect.

Think about HUGE ogre characters, three times as big as a normal player but much, much slower. Give them wheeled carts and transform them into "music" classes playing huge, tribal drums (with real sounds coming out of them, that will be heard from miles away on the battlefield) triggering temporary bursts of positive effects like speed boosts or haste effects during a charge. And then let those ogres "wield" those drums with two hands and use them directly to smash other players in melee. With extremely slow attacks but SWEEPING whatever happens to be in a 60 degree arc in front of them, hurling people in the air if they happen to get hit.

Add charging horses, mounted, armored combat boars, war machines, ridable flying dragons. The possibility to break a dam and flood a whole area for defense. Quick, smallish goblin and slow, bigger orcs with blunt, rudimental weapons. Elf races that "dance" on the battlefield, hard to get hit, with quick, sharp attacks chained together and teaming up with other players for special attacks, but extremely vulnerable to a charge or an attack that smashes and pins them down. And what about the proficency with ranged weapons (rate of fire and precision) since we have a sistem absolutely perfect to support these racial traits?

Ritual spells chained by one of more spellcaster that, if not broken or countered would trigger fearsome effects, like meteor swarms or opening chasms in the ground, devouring those who get caught within. The possibility to call storms and thunders.

Create completely different styles of combat for the races and classes, with a completely different feel and impact, different rates of attacks, movement speed, types of weapons, different mechanics. Add situational, external elements to the character like the war machines, transports, mounts. Sieges on castles with realistic ladders on the walls that can be pushed out to make the players fall on the ground, boiling oils melting those who pass below between the screams, crumbling walls that crush those nearby.

I said "PvP only" because that's where these concept work better. But what about replacing the loss of the health bars and icons with the creature behaving differently depending on the damage received and its health and morale?

How's that? Would it be... "fun"?

[Szlia]

Sounds like a mod for Heretic to me.

Edit: could be a good mod though.