Get paid to troll message boards?

[Rezz]

You'd have to make a lot of assumptions to build up a reliable database for itemization I'd think. Developers don't want a weapon to trivialize content, so it's got a "roof" on it's rating, they want it to compare favorably with weaponry dropped by other parallel content. Without knowing the specifics of the game I'm talking about, it's hard to order my thoughts on the subject matter, but lets say during beta, for an expansion, you take all possible weaponry/equipment, and basically let people play dressup. Just go from a stats/generic graphic setting, no names, just like "cloth bracer 1, cloth bracer 2" Don't tell the testers from which encounter/quest/whatever the item will result from, simply let them play dressup. See which items get picked over which other ones, have each tester do a small writeup deal on why they picked each piece over the other ones. Remove your highest end items from the list, have the developers compare and see if they like the mix, and if the items the players chose fit into their "endgame" envisioning for what people will wear to the endgame. Repeat for a couple groups. If people find that a slot was particularly lacking in choices, or that certain builds (different classes) were left out on that item, the developers could easily compare those notes to their own to see if they left a class out, or a certain style of play wasn't represented well enough.

Lots of ways to do it. It wouldn't really add that much more time onto a testing phase from what I can see, but then I haven't beta tested anything but Final Fantasy, and that wasn't a beta so much as it was a language test hah.

[Antarius]

I don't play SWG.

But from everything I've heard, it seems like the game is significantly better and more fun to new players.

Unfortunatly, you screwed over your long term players, and gave yourself the worst form of marketing ever, bad word of mouth.

And while you think overall that it would have been a wash or an improvement to the long term health of the game, casual non-hardcore gamers are not going to pick up a box that's they've seen on shelves for 3 years if it hasn't been heavily recommended to them from a friend.

Instead they are going to reach for Battlefront 2. It's not any more complicated than that.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Lyrical

Imo, observation is the best way to get data. Focus groups (where customers just talk) can exhibit real weird sociological behavior and customers tend to not be able to articulate their needs.

MMORPG players have never been able to articulate their needs in my opinion. I remember people bitching about travel times in EQ taking too long. Then when portals in POP were introduced, they stated travel didn't have any meaning anymore and made the world feel smaller.

That's just one example off the top of my head, but there are plently of things in where people just need to make a game and let it go the way they want to design it. Enough of the focus groups. Enough of the marketing polls. I didn't see Blizzard asking the public what type of game they should make, and they have a blockbuster on their hands because they hired from the community who knew what MMORPG'ers wanted. They hired gamers. They hired people that want to play their own games. The only problem they have now, after hearing this from Gamblor while playing WoW, is that now they need to fine some oracle programmers that actually like to play games due to that policy - and the good ones are usually not that into gaming for the most part.

You need to quit worrying about what is going to take in so much cash, and just make a fun accessible game based on developer experience and the cash will roll in anyway.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

MMORPG players have never been able to articulate their needs in my opinion. I remember people bitching about travel times in EQ taking too long. Then when portals in POP were introduced, they stated travel didn't have any meaning anymore and made the world feel smaller.

That's just one example off the top of my head, but there are plently of things in where people just need to make a game and let it go the way they want to design it. Enough of the focus groups. Enough of the marketing polls. I didn't see Blizzard asking the public what type of game they should make, and they have a blockbuster on their hands because they hired from the community who knew what MMORPG'ers wanted. They hired gamers. They hired people that want to play their own games. The only problem they have now, after hearing this from Gamblor while playing WoW, is that now they need to fine some oracle programmers that actually like to play games due to that policy - and the good ones are usually not that into gaming for the most part.

You need to quit worrying about what is going to take in so much cash, and just make a fun accessible game based on developer experience and the cash will roll in anyway.

One of the things we had to learn in my company after losing several billion dollars in failed product launches is that marketing data is great once you have the basic idea of where you want to go. Marketing data should enhance your decision but shouldn't drive your design. You end up getting Frankenstein's monster when the customer starts making design decisions because they just don't know or can't articulate what they want.

On the observation part, in my industry, Honda and Toyota have used observation to get great success. When the Honda Odyssey was launched, the Honda design team came to America and actually observed customers for two years straight. They followed customers around in a van with a mobile office. They actually got in trouble with the local authorities (who thought that anyone following people with a video camera might be trying to perform abductions). The van was a hit, and Honda attributes alot of it to the two years of observing customers. I can't speak on the MMO industry though. It might be a bit harder to observe players and get meaningful data. But in a general business sense, firms in various comsumer products industries (outside the auto industry) that are kicking butt are doing less talking and more observing.

[Vaclav]

Originally Posted by Kreugen

Except he has yet to say exactly that. I don't even know if they still pull the same shit, I just know Blizzard does not.

Bull-fucking-shit....

Just for starters the Mist quest in Teldrassil that was broken from uhm - whatever phase it was I got into the WoW beta until around 4 months after release that they kept saying was working fine on the forums for about 60-70% of that time. (First month they admitted it wasn't quite right, next many months kept saying it was fine, final month they admitted it wasn't working and the fix was imminent)

They may not be doing it nearly as rampantly, but it certainly exists - just you don't give a shit personally because it doesn't effect your personal niche in the game - since they make sure the raid content is pretty polished for the mostpart. (although there was the BWL gate fiasco for a bit....)

Hell, even your raiding content was screwed up indirectly for a long time - and for quite a while they denied the issues - regarding the umpteen raid ID and looting bugs. Only took them about 15 months to admit that the raid ID system was flawed, improperly tested and that it needed to be gutted.

Don't get me wrong, Blizzard is doing alot better overall - but they're far, far, far from perfect like you seem to be prosletyzing. (and I probably butchered the spelling there...)

[Smed]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

MMORPG players have never been able to articulate their needs in my opinion. I remember people bitching about travel times in EQ taking too long. Then when portals in POP were introduced, they stated travel didn't have any meaning anymore and made the world feel smaller.

That's just one example off the top of my head, but there are plently of things in where people just need to make a game and let it go the way they want to design it. Enough of the focus groups. Enough of the marketing polls. I didn't see Blizzard asking the public what type of game they should make, and they have a blockbuster on their hands because they hired from the community who knew what MMORPG'ers wanted. They hired gamers. They hired people that want to play their own games. The only problem they have now, after hearing this from Gamblor while playing WoW, is that now they need to fine some oracle programmers that actually like to play games due to that policy - and the good ones are usually not that into gaming for the most part.

You need to quit worrying about what is going to take in so much cash, and just make a fun accessible game based on developer experience and the cash will roll in anyway.

One thing I know about our company is that it is full of gamers and more specifically online gamers. This extends into every single part of the company.. from our General Counsel who met his wife playing EQ to our finance group (our CFO is someone that I will put against the best of you in CounterStrike). Our legal team has 4 lawyers.. 3 of which have over level 60's in EQ and one (our newest) who never gamed before and has a level 50 in EQ2. Our CS group is filled with people from our playerbase... and many on our dev teams actually came from CS. I myself prefer FPS's, and BF2 is my current obsession.. and it's a pretty brutal habit. And yes, like others.. I too get pissed when my weapons get nerfed or my helicopters lose missles.... People on the "outside" don't realize it, but in this industry.. you better darn well like playing games a lot. If you don't, frankly the hours are mind-numbing and the pace is always extremely tough. I promise you, Scott doesn't like getting a call at 3am telling him a database head blew.. or someone found an exploit and it's spreading. Joe Smith who's an insurance agent might make the same amount as Jim Smith who's a game programmer.. but the hours sure aren't the same... and neither is the job satisfaction (well ok.. I admit this based on the premise that everyone would want to make games if they could).

When we set out to make games we make them first and foremost as something that we want to play ourselves. Heck we've started some pretty cool stuff the public doesn't even know about.. and cancelled it.. all because the games just weren't feeling right. Then we have other stuff that from the get-go we feel has that magic. Focus groups are only to smooth the rough edges and are just there to make sure you see the forest from the trees and hopefully you see that before it gets out to the public.

[Abysmal]

how did this thread get so horribly derailed. anyone else notice the typos in PAs comics lately? wtf, spoils every joke.

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Smed

One thing I know about our company is that it is full of gamers and more specifically online gamers. This extends into every single part of the company.. from our General Counsel who met his wife playing EQ to our finance group (our CFO is someone that I will put against the best of you in CounterStrike). Our legal team has 4 lawyers.. 3 of which have over level 60's in EQ and one (our newest) who never gamed before and has a level 50 in EQ2. Our CS group is filled with people from our playerbase... and many on our dev teams actually came from CS. I myself prefer FPS's, and BF2 is my current obsession.. and it's a pretty brutal habit. And yes, like others.. I too get pissed when my weapons get nerfed or my helicopters lose missles.... People on the "outside" don't realize it, but in this industry.. you better darn well like playing games a lot. If you don't, frankly the hours are mind-numbing and the pace is always extremely tough. I promise you, Scott doesn't like getting a call at 3am telling him a database head blew.. or someone found an exploit and it's spreading. Joe Smith who's an insurance agent might make the same amount as Jim Smith who's a game programmer.. but the hours sure aren't the same... and neither is the job satisfaction (well ok.. I admit this based on the premise that everyone would want to make games if they could).

When we set out to make games we make them first and foremost as something that we want to play ourselves. Heck we've started some pretty cool stuff the public doesn't even know about.. and cancelled it.. all because the games just weren't feeling right. Then we have other stuff that from the get-go we feel has that magic. Focus groups are only to smooth the rough edges and are just there to make sure you see the forest from the trees and hopefully you see that before it gets out to the public.

I am not trying to be sarcastic or insulting now when I ask this, but if this was the case, how come Koster admitted on a public forum before his promotion to CCO that he is trying to get his developers to play their own game? (SWG)

Also, more testing threads which are reporting valid bugs on the SWG forums are being deleted. Most of which are not ranting in the slightest. Could you look into this for me?

[Smed]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

I am not trying to be sarcastic or insulting now when I ask this, but if this was the case, how come Koster admitted on a public forum before his promotion to CCO that he is trying to get his developers to play their own game? (SWG)

Also, more testing threads which are reporting valid bugs on the SWG forums are being deleted. Most of which are not ranting in the slightest. Could you look into this for me?

I think it's fair to say a lot of them didn't enjoy the game enough. Is that harsh? Yes.. but it's the truth. What Raph was referring to primarily was playing the game during off hours. That's how we know when we've got something.. when you catch people playing after hours on their own time.We don't force anyone to play here... that's got to be the "magic" part of what we do. A game either catches or it doesn't. There are also many cases where some people genuinely like a different style of game... you might have an artist that prefers an FPS to an RPG... although we usually try to put people on the kind of game they want to play. Btw, the designers are now playing (and enjoying and complaining... and fixing)

As for the SWG boards - I just checked and you are indeed correct and that is being rectified. Posts should only be deleted if they violate our stated policies and from what I heard some that were deleted didn't appear to have met that standard, which is unacceptable.

Before a big rant begins on this topic - you complained.. I looked into it.. it's being fixed... and I'm looking into why that happened and will be following up on that privately with my team to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Smed

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Smed

I think it's fair to say a lot of them didn't enjoy the game enough. Is that harsh? Yes.. but it's the truth. What Raph was referring to primarily was playing the game during off hours. That's how we know when we've got something.. when you catch people playing after hours on their own time.We don't force anyone to play here... that's got to be the "magic" part of what we do. A game either catches or it doesn't. There are also many cases where some people genuinely like a different style of game... you might have an artist that prefers an FPS to an RPG... although we usually try to put people on the kind of game they want to play. Btw, the designers are now playing (and enjoying and complaining... and fixing)

As for the SWG boards - I just checked and you are indeed correct and that is being rectified. Posts should only be deleted if they violate our stated policies and from what I heard some that were deleted didn't appear to have met that standard, which is unacceptable.

Before a big rant begins on this topic - you complained.. I looked into it.. it's being fixed... and I'm looking into why that happened and will be following up on that privately with my team to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Smed

For the record, I think I just shit my pants. I appreciate the honesty, and I appreciate you acknowledging this and looking into it.

This is my first thank you going to Smedley. Someone take a screenshot.

[Zarcath]

Smed - I was once reprimanded by, either Crosby or Scotto, for playing EQ during my lunch break, because quote "it distracts co-workers". I was also reprimanded for playing other companies games after hours (it was Counter-Strike). Work place rules became so ridiculous to the point where I wouldn't even stay a minute longer at work then I had to, I'd just go home. Scotto once tried to reprimand me for an anime wallpaper. Crosby assigned me to GM the server I had spent level 1-50 on (server split) on, even having wrote it on my resume and telling him in my interview, telling him numerous times afterwards and nothing was done, which put me into situations I'd not have liked to be in. Also the numerous times my name was misspelled on GM rosters and in the manual even after I told them it was spelled wrong and nothing was done to correct it.

While I certainly enjoyed my actual work, it was the environment I was in that made it miserable for me. For a short while we used to do those company raids, I specifically remember when Scotto was running around plane of hate on his rogue backstabbing mobs we were tried to crowd control, and I was thinking "this is our manager?" A co-worker had found logs of Scotto on a server creating pre-released items for his friends, I told him to do something about it but he didn't.

There was an open door policy for a time. I was desperately trying to get out of the CS department and into testing. I went to talk to the manager above Crosby and Scotto, I ended up back at Crosby's desk, reprimanded for skipping the chain of command.

Maybe my cluelessness towards office politics contributed to my misery, I really thought the only requiste for working at a game company was a mutual love for games.

Sadly I've learned more about Smed from this thread then I had from any amount of company picnics and events. For whatever reason he keeps coming back here trying to get us to like him, again, why any normal CEO would go to the trouble, I don't know. Even though it's over the internet he seems much more reachable/personable then he ever did in real life.

I don't know why it took an internet thread for this to happen, it should have happened while I was working there, but it didn't, and I think it doesn't for a lot of other people still there.

We should get a BF2 match together, I'd love to blow Smed out of his helicopter! Missle nerf is a small price to pay for fixes to dolphin diving and insta-prone :P

[Stil]

Don't you see? Utnayan is an SoE shill... and the long and elaborate scheme has finally been set in motion. After all, if Smedley can win over Utnayan we should ALL get down and worship.

[Utnayan]

Smed - I was once reprimanded by, either Crosby or Scotto, for playing EQ during my lunch break, because quote "it distracts co-workers". I was also reprimanded for playing other companies games after hours (it was Counter-Strike). Work place rules became so ridiculous to the point where I wouldn't even stay a minute longer at work then I had to, I'd just go home. Scotto once tried to reprimand me for an anime wallpaper. Crosby assigned me to GM the server I had spent level 1-50 on (server split) on, even having wrote it on my resume and telling him in my interview, telling him numerous times afterwards and nothing was done, which put me into situations I'd not have liked to be in. Also the numerous times my name was misspelled on GM rosters and in the manual even after I told them it was spelled wrong and nothing was done to correct it.

While I certainly enjoyed my actual work, it was the environment I was in that made it miserable for me. For a short while we used to do those company raids, I specifically remember when Scotto was running around plane of hate on his rogue backstabbing mobs we were tried to crowd control, and I was thinking "this is our manager?" A co-worker had found logs of Scotto on a server creating pre-released items for his friends, I told him to do something about it but he didn't.

Wow. So let me get this straight. People working for the company were making items for their friends, and nothing was done about it? Smed, can you look to see if Scotto is doing this in EQ2? I woud say that is a bit unfair to your players if employees are allowed to create items for their friends. Especially when gamers work so hard to get some items.

And no Stil, he hasn't won me over. But if the honesty continues just like what I saw right there in his post about finding out why legitimate bug posts were being deleted, then that is a major first step.

[Smed]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Wow. So let me get this straight. People working for the company were making items for their friends, and nothing was done about it? Smed, can you look to see if Scotto is doing this in EQ2? I woud say that is a bit unfair to your players if employees are allowed to create items for their friends. Especially when gamers work so hard to get some items.

And no Stil, he hasn't won me over. But if the honesty continues just like what I saw right there in his post about finding out why legitimate bug posts were being deleted, then that is a major first step.

We keep careful logs of this stuff, and there's no doubt that people have been fired for this kind of thing. In fact, we've gone to the trouble of helping prosecute someone with the police and the DA for selling some stuff on an auction site. (this is an incident I've never even mentioned before in a public forum). It's something we take very seriously... and everyone here knows it. These logs are reviewed. Some people do have the ability to create items.. and under certain circumstances give them out to people. It is our game.. but I am very confident in George.. even though he may reprimand people from time to time... and perhaps even Zarcath as he himself pointed out.

Utnanyan.. while I respect the question - it's a fair one... I would submit to you that part of our disagreement here is perhaps your willingness to just accept random stuff from ex-employees. That stuff from TheAgent wasn't malicious or anything (I happen to remember him quite well).. some of it was just straight up bad memory. In this case, I didn't personally know Zarcath.. we have 700+ people working for SOE.. so I may not have met him.. but at some point everyone has a boss.. and not everyone likes their boss.

I honestly hope you see my point on this.

Smed

[Darph]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Wow. So let me get this straight. People working for the company were making items for their friends..

Anyone else not read part?
Did I miss somthing?

Smed, Tigole,Gallenite, Furor, Aradune, and etc, aren't your pet monkies here to jump through your idiotic hoops.

The leg humping stops now.