When are we going to get an original MMORPG?

hagin · 12-23-2005, 03:34 PM

The way I see it, EQ was, in gaming terms, a revolution (much like Doom or Civilization was years ago). It created a new genre. Yes I know there 1-2 boutique equivalents prior to that but EQ brought MMOGs to the masses.

Everything since then seems to be simply an evolutionary refinement. DAoC changed a lot of the perceived flaws of EQ (like increasing party size to 8) but introduced much bigger problems, like the system of choosing your realm at character creation leads to inevitable realm imbalance.

EQ2 is better graphics than EQ and arguably better mechanics so that doesn't really interest me.

This may offend the "fanboi"s, but I see WoW as no more than an evolutionary EQ as well. Frankly it's success (5m+ accounts) boggles the mind. I can't put it to much more than the Blizzard name. Well, WoW did one thing previous games didn't: it made MMOGs more accessible and WoW really is "MMOG lite". Of any of the current games, maxing out level is by far the fastest in WoW. This in turn has led to massive player turnover, as witnessed by threads here about the difficiulty in creating and maintaining a guild in WoW.

The one game that came the closest to being significantly different, I have to say, is Lineage 2.

For those that don't know anything about L2 (most of you I'm guessing), here's a summary:

- You choose your race (Human, Elf, Dark Elf, Orc, Dwarf) and class (Fighter or Mystic; Dwarves don't get Mystic as a choice);
- At level 20 you have your first class change. Depending on what you are, you have between 1 and 3 choices (eg Elf Mystic -> Elf Oracle or Elf Wizard);
- At level 40 you have your second class change (again 1-3 choices). Elf Oracle has only a choice of Elven Elder but Human Wizard has the choice of Necromancer, Warlock or Sorcerer;
- First class change is a relatively simple quest. Second is a fairly involved set of 3 quests;
- You earn SP (skill points) along with XP and can spend them on skills, depending on your class. You lose XP when you die but not SP. Without dying a lot (or buying SP scrolls) it typically isn't possible to buy everything;
- Twinking is greatly reduced by gear having grades, from NG (no grade), then D through A. At level 1-19 you can use NG gear only without penalty (to movement and hit rate). You gain access to D (20), C (40), B (52) and A (61) grade gear later;
- Weapons all have patk for melee and matk for magic damage (from spells). If you're a melee or caster this state really really matters;
- Virtually nothing is "no drop" in L2. This is the one aspect that, to me, really makes it different. I'm sick of the nodrop/raiding timesink merrygoround. Only quest items tend to be no drop and not all of them are;
- Only Dwarf Artisans can craft items. To do so they need recipes and a whole bunch of mats (materials). This is how money flows from the high levels to the low levels. Typically low levels get as good (if not better) access to mats. Making a B grade weapon may require as many as 10,000 "newbie mats". Newbie mats are things like stems. 5 steams make a braided hemp. 5 braided hemp and 5 thread make compound braid. 6 Animal skins makes leather. Leather and steel and something else makes crafted leather, etc;
- All items can be "crystallized". This returns them to crystal form. If it's a C grade weapon, you'll get a fixed number of C crystals. C crystals are required for crafting and for making ss (soulshots) and sps (spiritshots);
- One big way items leave the economy is with ss and sps. These respectively double your damage with a single melee strike or spell (respectively);
- Weapons and armor can be enchanted with expendable scrolls. One of hte best aspects (imho) is that they can be overenchanted. Up to +3 is safe (+4 for full body armor). Every enchant beyond that risks crystallizing the weapon (to a fraction of its normal crystal value). The chance of success is about 2/3. On C grade weapons, for example, a plus adds 3 matk up to +3. For each plus beyond +3 it adds double (6). That means an homunkulus sword (101matk) at +10 is 152matk. An homunkulus costs about 7m adena (the currency of L2). A +10 in the player market is about 90m+ because of all the risks of breaking;
- You can set up buy shops, sell shops and craft shops. This is a bit backward when you compare it to even the Bazaar in EQ but L2's strength isn't it's technology or even it's UI (which is like Kunark level). Craft shops are good. It means you can pay for a combine without giving anything to the dwarf (or even the dwarf being at the keyboard);
- Class skills are not (or are hardly ever) unique. Sleep (think Mez) is given to most wizards and most priests. It caps out at different levels for these classes. Elven Elders get it all the way to 75. Shilien Elders (Dark Elves) don't get it above 35 but get other things instead. This, to me, is a refreshing change to the "ability paranoia" of EQ;
- L2, at it's heart, is a PvP game. PvP is NOT optional. You can run around and kill people if you like, even really low level people. Sadly, this does happen. You get what are called "red griefers" who run around killing newbies. They're red because when you PK people you get karma. If you have karma, your name is red. If you're red, someone else can kill you with no karma loss. If your PK count is above 5 and you're red, your chance of dropping items when you die goes from almost nil to very high. The red griefers have crap gear (but good enough to kill newbies) and karma so high they'll never work it off (and they have no intention of doing so);
- The high end of L2 is a PvP game with one interesting twist: you can siege castles. Clans/alliances own castles and get a benefit from doing so that varies depending on which of the 6 castles they own. They have access to a castle crafting system in all cases that can be quite lucrative. They also set the tax rate in the town the castle owns. They get a cut from everything sold from vendors in that town. Sieges take place every 2 weeks (for each castle) and go on for a couple of hours with one alliance trying to take it off another;
- The game has a unique "manor system" for making money, especially at low levels. You buy seeds, use them on monsters and then kill them. Instead of getting what the monster normally drops, you get "crops". You buy the seeds from a manor (castle) and sell the crops back to the manor. The castle can use these crops for crafting. The seeder gets mats as a reward.

Ok, that was a little longer than I expected but I just wanted to illustrate how L2 has added many unique innovations, it's broken the EQ/D&D class mold and created a game that isn't simply a "me too" high level raiding timesink. It has by far the best economy of any of these games. Because items exit the system, their values don't plummet to zero from oversupply. EQ made gear in previous expansions virtually obsolete in new expansions because, hey, it moved a few mroe boxes. L2 hasn't done that to date. Expansions in L2 (called Chronicles) are free (there have been 3 to date and a 4th on the way). They come out every 6-9 months.

Probably the weakest aspect is the PvE aspect. It's a huge grind to 75 (in fact if you have a full-time job, forget about making it in less than 1-2 years minimum) and the dungeons are boring. The exp system is broken. It rewards bottomfeeding (killing the lowest level thing you can that doesn't have a level xp penalty). It rewards small groups of 2-3 and punishes large groups (up to 9). Also, PvP has winners (those who can do damage at range) and losers (those who can't).

All that being said, it, to me, is the closest to being an original game worth playing.

This brings me to Vanguard. From what I've read about it, it just seems to be trying to be a "better EQ", which is the same path every other game has gone down.

How long before someone releases something original? I hear they're working on Lineage 3 now. Am I doomed to wait for that?

Luthair · 12-23-2005, 03:43 PM

While I agree with the start of your post once you hit L2 stuff I disagree.

Games need to ditch tradeskills, they cannot have a viable tradeskill system (barring expendibles) in when items can't be broken permanently.

Antarius · 12-23-2005, 03:46 PM

I can't believe I read past the 4th Paragraph.

Lineage 2 was by far the worst game I have played between picking up Everquest in '99 and Today.

Shit, I had more fun in Horizons than I did in Lineage 2. The game was a total shitpile.

Obviously having 4 races, each race with 2 faces is original for sure, originally gay.

Rayne · 12-23-2005, 03:48 PM

I'm looking forward to SUN. Kind of GW'ish, but looks awesome nonetheless. The producer's interview reveals some pretty cool ideas.

Cybsled · 12-23-2005, 03:50 PM

Many of the things you listed as "original" in L2 were just jacked from other MMOs.

"Unlocking" classes and levels via quest = FFXI. The tiered base class-->specialty class was done by DAOC.

The L2 crafting system was extremely idiotic in it's implementation IMO. Games like SWG did it far better.

UO and Shadowbane did a far better job with an environment shaped by PVP. UO had shops long ago.

The Castle+manor system sounds like features from DAOC.

Then you point out that many classes dont have unique abilities, which makes one wonder wtf the point of a class is. Hell, in L2 it's basically "if you arent ranged, you're fucked".

Then

Quote:

Probably the weakest aspect is the PvE aspect. It's a huge grind to 75 (in fact if you have a full-time job, forget about making it in less than 1-2 years minimum) and the dungeons are boring. The exp system is broken. It rewards bottomfeeding (killing the lowest level thing you can that doesn't have a level xp penalty).

And you like this game? L2 is a huge sack of shit.

Shadowbane, minus the bugs and imbal shit, was a far more original MMO then L2 could ever hope to be.

Szlia · 12-23-2005, 03:50 PM

What is original in that list?

Zehn - Vhex · 12-23-2005, 03:52 PM

Posts like this remind me of when people whine about music. "WE HAVEN'T HAD ANYTHING ORIGINAL SINCE NIRVANA!!!11!!eleven" Just because some piece of shit coming out of nowhere becomes popular, doesn't mean there were dozens of people doing the same shit before.

From the ground up, you're an idiot.

Look at Vanguard where they're so desperate for "ORIGNAL FRESH PUSSY!" that they're "omgosh you mean I can have the same first name as someone else! WOW! That's totally new from being able to have the same last name!!!"

Fuck.

L2 was close to revolutionary? Jesus fuck, it's the same as 90% of fantasy games created since the dawn of time. EQ was no more fresh, revolutionary or original then the pair of boxers I have keeping my dick from getting caught in my fly after I piss.

Slapping a chat window on a game does not make it suddenly revolutionary no more then adding cell phones to cars brought on a new era of automobile awesomeness!

If they added a fusion engine to the core of a car, then yes, we'd be looking at an (r)evolution. Features do not make a game new, fresh or original. Changing the core dynamics do. Until total immersion/virtual reality give us the opportunity of blasting a load inside Emma Watson in the Harry Potter hot coffee mod, all we can do is build a better mouse trap.

Fuck.