EVE Online: Red Moon Rising

[beepbeepbeep]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

This'll sound weird, but I'm getting addicted just by the draw of what I can do later. I've downloaded some frapsed movies of fleets vs fleets and even being a frigate in those melees seem....awesome.

Not weird at all, that is exactly what drew me to the game. The beginning game is basically waiting for a lot of training to finish.

To me, it's a lot like a normal MMORPG without a lvl 1-40 game, where the game suddenly begins at later levels.

I'm still fleshing out my starter skills, and in a week or two I'll be helpful to my allies, eventually I'll be able to kill people with my corp.

It is possible to have a good time on day one though... http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingamebo...hreadID=228135

EVE is what you make of it.

[Eomer]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's what you make of it. If you start with the mentality of "oh man, I've got to start with mining" then yeah it's going to be boring. You never have to mine a single asteroid if you choose not to. Instead you can run missions (which are IMO the most boring gameplay, or at least were when I played a year ago. They've changed a ton since though, before it was just jump 10 times and play fetch, now it's much better with deadspaces(dungeons/instances) and such), trade, manufacture, rat hunt, join a corp, whatever.

Eve's been brought up on the forums here before, and each time a couple dozen people try it, and only a handful are left after the trial. Mainly because the people who try it basically play it solo either rat hunting or mining, decide it's boring, and quit.

[Etadanik]

Well, if as Bizanich and beepbeepbeep indicated, the reason for playing through the drudge of the early game is simply because they anticipate the space battles, then really, wouldn't it have been better to start off with that? Start you off with a light fighter vessel or even a vessel incapable of combat but which gets to take part in them by, say, delivering supplies or mining asteroids (but not in the middle of nowhere, but rather close to contested areas where you get to witness the battles and flee from enemy ships). Wouldn't the game be improved and become more popular as a result of this, if this is really where the fun is?

I guess what I'm getting at is the general problem in MMORPGs of making you "wait" before you have fun. WoW addressed some of these issues by making 1-60 alot more fun, but that had the drawback of making the 60+ game barren for the longest time. Still, the goal, I think, should be to make the journey rather than the destination the point of the game. This doesn't mean starting players off with a battlecruiser because that's the most exciting ship to command (an example, now obviously no longer true): no, the player should have to work for advancement of that sort, but working for that advancement should be made fun. Just because my ultimate goal is to become the admiral of thousands of ships doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy piloting a small fighter amidst giants. Game progression should work off of that philosophy, at least imo.

With respect to Eve, that might just mean making the solo game more like the PvP aspect where, after all, the real game is.

[Dynalisia]

That's all nice and all, but EVE just strikes me as the kind of game where the makers give you the tools and let you figure out the rest yourself. More of a simulator than actually a game, per se. Sure, that's a niche game, but I don't think the makers have ever intended it to be anything else and commercially they're still doing stellar regardless of that.

[Etadanik]

I don't quite understand what you mean by simulator. Aren't all MMORPGs simulators of a sort? Using the "niche game appeal" as an excuse doesn't occur to me as being a very good way of approaching design. Still, since you're obviously more aware of this niche appeal than I am, can you answer as to how the game would be worsened if its initial stages were integrated with the PvP rather than boring solo-PvE play?

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Etadanik

I don't quite understand what you mean by simulator. Aren't all MMORPGs simulators of a sort? Using the "niche game appeal" as an excuse doesn't occur to me as being a very good way of approaching design. Still, since you're obviously more aware of this niche appeal than I am, can you answer as to how the game would be worsened if its initial stages were integrated with the PvP rather than boring solo-PvE play?

I think what's meant by simulators is that there's real danger in getting killed (ship/item loss, clones etc), and that players actually create a lot of the content because the game allows them to. Like the sovereignty in the game now and that you can make a difference in the game. Example, from what I've been reading an Alliance has allied with an NPC corporation called Serpentis in one of the outer areas to battle other PC's. GM's or whatever they call them actually interact with the players.

It's not like SWG where, yeah, players create bases....but the PvP impact/penalty isn't there. In Eve I could lose everything I have on my ship/character when I died....

That just doesn't happen in EQ (to nearly that extent) or WoW. The closest a game came to that was UO.

The rest of what you said, I agree with. I actually think a player should start with 50-60k in skill points instead of zero now, due to how long the game has been out. They could join the space battles in a frigate very quickly with that.

Damnit, they pushed server up back 4 hours

[beepbeepbeep]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

The rest of what you said, I agree with. I actually think a player should start with 50-60k in skill points instead of zero now, due to how long the game has been out. They could join the space battles in a frigate very quickly with that.

You can create a character with 150,000 skill points now, depending on the path you take in character creation. I've seen as low as 7,000 and as high as 150,000. The character I made had 50,000 on startup.

That post on the official forums that I linked earlier has a guy that started with 150,000 and did some successful pirating on his first day in the game.

[Gurgeh]

Don't be like : "ok I'll mine a bit and train a few skill and then I'll start doing interesting things."
You can take part in alliances wars right away (i.e. once your char is over 2 weeks old for obvious reasons). Regardless of what you might like to do later on, it's better to spend his time as a newbie with experienced players that will be willing to show you the rope, rather than in a carebear corporation in empire where everyone only care about the short term growth of their wallet.

As for not being able to "compete" with older players, well in a way newer player won't ever be able to get as many SP as old timer, so you might think it's a problem especialy for pvp, but really it's not. Eve is a "war" simulator, it's not quake-like PvP, in a war you don't fight unless you're pretty much sure to win. Eve pvp is about catching your opponents off guard and slaughtering them, leaving them no chance to strike back.
Eve wars are about logistics, strategies, long term plans, not really about mad pvp-sk3llz in 1v1. You win because you out-smarted, out-numbered and trapped your opponent. Don't expect a lot of action either, as it has already been said, there is a lot at stake in each military engagement, losing a battle is not something you want to happen, when your ship get blow, it's gone, you don't repop at your bind point 30 sec away and be back in fight in less than 1 minute, depending on where you're fighting you might very well be out of the fight for the rest of the day, and several hundreds of millions of ISK short once you get shot.

So, yes, Eve is a very slow paced game. But that's mostly because there's no other choice, there can't be an interesting "world at war" simulation with WoW-like PvP mecanisms. Moving an army has to be slow, losing a battle has to hurt. Fighting far from your home and industries has to be a logistic nightmare.

[Gar]

You can be one of the most important part of pvp combat fleet, a tackler with week worth of training.

Eve is all about knowledge, those who find it boring often do not join corporations and alliances who actually combat. Need of good tacklers, that infact requires more real skill than learning points.

Good tackler knows instantly what ship hes tackling, average weapon ranges, how to appoarch, how to avoid damage, signature ratius advantages and how to use speed as weapon.

Hell, after few weeks of ingame learning, guy who understands shit (aka is smart) can tank a npc Battleship spawn in 0.0 space while gunships tear them down - earning quite a fuckton of money. No mining ever needed. Interceptors for the win.

Smart guy wins in EVE. You need basic social skills, quick learner and some math head to make it in EVE.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by beepbeepbeep

You can create a character with 150,000 skill points now, depending on the path you take in character creation. I've seen as low as 7,000 and as high as 150,000. The character I made had 50,000 on startup.

That post on the official forums that I linked earlier has a guy that started with 150,000 and did some successful pirating on his first day in the game.

Grr. I started with like 10k lol .

[Itzena]

Easy way to piracy:
Caldari and the right training path to get missile 1, frigate 3.
Finish first storyline mission and sell implant for (at least) 2/3rds of a million ISK.
Buy a kestrel and 4x missile launcher, and fit with rocket ammo.
Buy civilian shield booster and civilian afterburner.

You are now a ghetto pirate, able to take down the unwary and stupid with no further training needed.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Itzena

Easy way to piracy:
Caldari and the right training path to get missile 1, frigate 3.
Finish first storyline mission and sell implant for (at least) 2/3rds of a million ISK.
Buy a kestrel and 4x missile launcher, and fit with rocket ammo.
Buy civilian shield booster and civilian afterburner.

You are now a ghetto pirate, able to take down the unwary and stupid with no further training needed.

I still need rocket training, have everything else though. Don't know WHERE to Pirate, though . Universe is frickin enormous lol.

Also, have no idea what tackling is, though I did link up with an Amarrian Corp that actually trains newbies. Still have to get angle of attack down, but getting there..

[Gurgeh]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

Grr. I started with like 10k lol .

Yeah that's BS, you should start with a given number of SP rather than choose between skill path. There are those who know you can start with racial frigate 4 and the others

[Eomer]

Grr. I started with like 10k lol .

Your starting SP number doesn't matter all that much really, since the characters with higher SP starting numbers are often industry oriented and such. The worst part about starting a character is working on the Learning skills, IMO. And then they went and added Advanced Learning skills, bastards. Basically they raise your attributes so you learn faster, so for pure efficiency it's best to learn those very early on.

And I would just like to offer a big "fuck you" to you bastards, as I'll probably end up restarting at least one of my Eve accounts because of this thread. Same as the last thread. Fuckers.

[beepbeepbeep]

Yeah, fuck the learning skills. I wish they weren't there. They just feel like timesink++ and are totally unneeded.