Philosophy behind paladin changes

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Speaking as a former priest:

I wish that fear were half as effective as Cad seems to think it is.

Not saying fear is 100% effective in any way. Due to the numerous ways to break fear, you can't rely on it. I agree with you.

You can't say it's 100% ineffective either, so it has to be factored in as part of a priests survivability.

[Duppin]

It's pretty much ALL of a priest's survivability.

PW:S? Don't make me laugh, 900 damage mitigated every 15 seconds is pretty trivial already, and will continue to get more trivial over time.

Healing through damage? There's a variety of problems with that. Hunter pets, fast melee skills, silences/stuns, etc etc etc.

Priest survivability in any sort of group PvP is overall pretty lousy.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

Plate and a shield?

Do not bring up "but lolz fear is just as effective!" It's not.

Okay, so he has physical damage mitigation. That helps him against rogues, warriors, and hunters. Against a mage, what does a pally do? Warlock? Priest? Shaman?

Against rogues and warriors a priest has some defense as well. (Fear). Is it good? Well, when it works it's 100% damage mitigation. Priests really need a deathcoil like ability that isn't breakable, but hey. Priests also get PW:S and renew, which together mitigate 116 damage per second. You can't discount that stuff and just go: less armor? Less survivability. I'm not going to sit here and say "priests r 1 tough cookie!" like fangtooth but be honest guys, they don't drop in 2 seconds either.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Duppin

It's pretty much ALL of a priest's survivability.

PW:S? Don't make me laugh, 900 damage mitigated every 15 seconds is pretty trivial already, and will continue to get more trivial over time.

Healing through damage? There's a variety of problems with that. Hunter pets, fast melee skills, silences/stuns, etc etc etc.

Priest survivability in any sort of group PvP is overall pretty lousy.

Mainly because as soon as a priest shows up, every single person targets them. A pally sans bubble wouldn't live any longer than a priest in that type of situation.

[Sylas]

Mainly because as soon as a priest shows up, every single person targets them. A pally sans bubble wouldn't live any longer than a priest in that type of situation.

yes. they. would. They have more armor and more health (allows for others to land heals on them, that window doesn't exist with cloth) and they can heal themselves without interruption sans an interupt skill.

seriously Cad, while most people just disregard your posts entirely i try and reason and give you the benefit of the doubt most of the time, hell i'll even agree with you sometimes. But on this topic in particular, I believe "puff, puff, pass that shit you are smoking" is the most accurate statement I can use to describe how wrong you are here.

[Cad]

k whatever

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Cad

Okay, so he has physical damage mitigation. That helps him against rogues, warriors, and hunters. Against a mage, what does a pally do? Warlock? Priest? Shaman?

The same thing a priest does, nothing. Neither side has an advantage there, although I would wager that Paladins typically have more HPs.

Against rogues and warriors a priest has some defense as well. (Fear). Is it good? Well, when it works it's 100% damage mitigation. Priests really need a deathcoil like ability that isn't breakable, but hey. Priests also get PW:S and renew, which together mitigate 116 damage per second. You can't discount that stuff and just go: less armor? Less survivability. I'm not going to sit here and say "priests r 1 tough cookie!" like fangtooth but be honest guys, they don't drop in 2 seconds either.

A good warrior is very, very hard to fear. Rogues have a PVP trinket, and also have the advantage of at least one strike from stealth (or more with CS). That leaves PW:S and renew, which are a far cry from plate and a shield.

[Duppin]

I don't think you really understand the concept of causation, Cad.

People don't target paladins BECAUSE of their survivability, not the other way around. A bubble is part of a paladin's survivability, but they have other tools as well.

Just off the top of my head:
-Stuns
-Plate/shield (this can't be dismissed as easily as you want it to be, the difference in melee mitigation is GINORMOUS)
-LoH
-70% non-interrupt talent on heals very low down in the tree

That's just off the top of my head, from someone who isn't a Paladin expert.

[Cad]

I understand it duppin, and I think it's at least partly self-fulfilling. But whatever, we clearly just disagree on the fundamentals here, so it's useless arguing about it. I'm personally not ever going to play a paladin again, so I don't know why I give a shit. I'm planning on rolling horde when the expansion comes out so I'll look forward to killing paladins then I guess, since they haven't been fixed for shit.

[Remfin]

Uhm, have you actually used Psychic Scream in PVP? It sucks ass. Every single time in the past 3 weeks I've tried to use it in a position that would buy me time, they were either Immune (can't do snot about warriors, the good ones go immune immediately, the even better ones stall a little first cause they know you know they'll go immune and so get some extra time on target), or they resisted it (most anyone), or they did a perfect stunlock and I never actually got to cast it (lots of rogues)

Fear never seems to give me any PVP survivability. It only ever works to interrupt flag capping sometimes

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Remfin

Uhm, have you actually used Psychic Scream in PVP? It sucks ass. Every single time in the past 3 weeks I've tried to use it in a position that would buy me time, they were either Immune (can't do snot about warriors, the good ones go immune immediately, the even better ones stall a little first cause they know you know they'll go immune and so get some extra time on target), or they resisted it (most anyone), or they did a perfect stunlock and I never actually got to cast it (lots of rogues)

Fear never seems to give me any PVP survivability. It only ever works to interrupt flag capping sometimes

I have 5 points in shadow focus, helps alot with the resists. You basically never see anything your level resist anything ever. Warriors who blow rage right away are ez-mode if you can live 10 seconds.. soon as it fades fear them and own them. Then again, I'm full shadow and warriors and hunters are the only classes I drop out of shadowform for.

[Makata]

Originally Posted by riot

It's about choice and flexibility, you freaking moron. It's about stripping down some baseline abilities and adding more options to Paladins

Look, it's a god damned horrible idea. Bubble and all the other crap are what make paladins unique. Why are you so fucking persistant on getting rid of them? Don't like them? Why'd you level your paladin past level 10 then??

Personally, if I had a choice, I'd happily give up the bubble for more damage in PvP.

I'm quite aware of it. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Allow me to show you, by means of slight alteration:
And by the same token, I would give up my CHEAP SHOT in a heartbeat for better GAP CLOSING capabilities such as a NON-PROC RELIANT SNARE/INTERCEPT.

There. Hey if I'm willing to give up these abilities, clearly it makes it fair, right?

Originally Posted by Cad

It's obvious you don't understand paladin pvp, you don't understand how paladins survive, and you want a personal buff-bot to follow you around and heal you.

Know what, though? When they do that .. when they do exactly that (and of course heal others) .. we win the game. Pretty hard to convince me it's better for them to go solo dps when doing what you hate helps win the game. As I said, thankfully I know several paladins who do this.

Originally Posted by Cad

But whatever, we clearly just disagree on the fundamentals here, so it's useless arguing about it.

Yes, fundamentals, like how:
- Plate (vs cloth)
- Shield (vs no shield)
- LH (vs no LH)
- High hp (vs medium hp)
- THREAT of bubble (vs fear)
don't somehow confer an advantage to the paladin. What amuses me the most is you cannot grasp what the bubble's biggest advantage is. You seem to think that for 10 seconds of every 5 minutes, the paladin is left alone to heal but for the next 290 seconds, he's ass-raped 16 ways from Sunday. It doesn't happen that way genius. If you and your group comes upon a group with a paladin, do you know if his bubble is up? Do you really want to chance it? A smart paladin will save it anyway. It is the THREAT of the fact it MIGHT be up.

Why do you think put dots on me the second they see me? Why do you think I cheap shot/rupture rogues the second I can? I don't know if their vanish is up and they don't know if mine is but fuck if we're gonna take the chance.

[gavinrad]

Makata, i'm not gonna read your post, because I know its more inane babbling from some dumbfuck who wants his own personal paladin pet.

[Phoenix]

Silence takes care of any paladins who dont want to bubble.

[Algol Devilstar]

and mortal strike takes care of most healers... whats your point? Of course there is a counter to every ability.