PvP in WoW is not "happy"

[Abalieno]

Written on my blog, I'm curious about opinions here.

To begin with, a post from Tobold on his blog that connects with something I wrote in the past and another recent post:

Exploiting WoW PvP

I did a number of Warsong Gulch runs yesterday, all of which I either quickly won 3:0, or quickly lost 0:3. So I began to wonder where the balanced fights were. I noticed that the fights I won where always with the same people, the Horde PvP experts. And the fights that I lost were always against the same people, the Alliance PvP experts. Would be fun to see them fighting each other, experts against experts, wouldn't it?

No chance. Because then I finally realized how they were exploiting the system. On a busy evening there are several instances of Warsong Gulch running. So the experts sign up, and the moment they appear in the instance, they quickly click on the button which shows the names of the players of *both* sides. And if they are paired against the other side experts, the type /afk, which instantly boots them out of the instance, and then they sign up for the other battlefield.

If you think that PvP is a fight of Horde against Alliance, you are wrong. It is a competition of Horde against Horde, and Alliance against Alliance. To get to the highest rank in PvP, you need to make more points than the players on your *own* side. What points the other side makes is totally irrelevant to your progress. So chosing your enemy well, and only fighting disorganized pickup groups, is your quickest way to the top.

Now I want to offer my 2 cents to try to point out the actual design problem that is causing that mess.

The problem is similar to the critiques I wrote about the communal processes and goals. In WoW the PvP is faked because there aren't persistent elements (call them "consequences") beside the PvP rewards. The PvP rewards are all but communal and are filed in the category of the "bigger e-peen". Again communal processes (and not so much, in this case, since you can just go afk in Alterac and still farm honor/reputation) to reach egoistical goals. A duo that just doesn't work as I often tried to demonstrate in the past.

The fact is that the PvP in WoW doesn't exist. The war doesn't exist. It's all faked in a sort of detached arcade mode that roleplays itself, taking place somewhere else in the form of a detached, instanced zone. The PvP isn't consistent, despite the two factions are at war from the "lore" point of view, they aren't in the game. They don't fight over something. They don't conquer nor control (at least in the BGs, on the PvP servers the situation was better before they introduced the honor points). So it's obvious how the whole and only purpose of the PvP is just the personal gain. A personal gain that can easily be exploited since the "war" exists just as a false excuse. As a pretence.

Basically the problems Tobold noted are just the consequence of a system that is not consistent. It doesn't simulate what matters and the obvious result is about the players working around the faked war to reach the actual REAL, concrete goal: the personal reward. Once again the players outsmart the designers and show them where their ideas are broken and pretentious.

They made obvious how the "pattern" the designers assumed (a conflict between the factions) isn't the "pattern" that the game actually offers (get phat loot through the reward system and a self-competitive ladder). The players finally found the shorter path to reach the "carrot", which definitely isn't through the conflict but through the avoidance of it. Because the conflict, in this game, is only assumed and never actually delivered (again because there is no persistence and no true communal goals).

Since the game offers no real war, the players have learnt how to avoid it and be happy (reach the carrot=discover the true mechanic of the system).

In other games where the PvP works there has always been a persistent element. Just because the war needs to be concrete within the game-layer, or it becomes stupid and pretentious. Like WoW's PvP.

[mrONLINE]

The PvP system is flawed. In the end, at the very top, you fight vs your own faction.

[Phoenix]

WoW's pvp is broken because it revolves completely around the BGs, and ofcourse we all know how heavily bugged/exploited those are.

Easiest solution is to give me encintive to fight out side of AV/WSG, and prevent /afking from fresh AVs or WSGs.

[Malakriss]

Why's it called PvP then? Since it's obviously not Player versus Player. It's Alliance versus Horde on the battlefield, and Horde versus Horde for the quest to rank 14.

The whole system is out of whack.

[marketa]

The queue system is also broken and has to be fixed before they start punishing people for /afk. The problem is that 1 person can hold up a 40 man AV raid from happening because they are ahead of everyone in the queue. The raid group then has to join single and then hide/afk to flip the players infront of them into an instance so that they can rejoin as a group. Kinda lame? Everyone does it now.

The competition versus your own faction wouldnt be so bad if they used your best standing for one week out of the month as a basis to rank you up. The fact that you can go on vacation for a week and loose a months worth of work is retarded and leads to massive burnout even for rank 11. It would also make the system more casual. I think 4 people being able to reach standing #1 is a lot better than 1 person having to hit standing 1 for 4 weeks in a row.

No matter what standing you are on the ladder your still competing with only your faction.

[Cybsled]

The stupid, non-sensical queues are what kills PVP.

[kasey]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

The problem is similar to the critiques I wrote about the communal processes and goals. In WoW the PvP is faked because therearen't persistent elements (call them "consequences") beside the PvP rewards. The PvP rewards are all but communal and are filed in the category of the "bigger e-peen". Again communal processes (and not so much, in this case, since you can just go afk in Alterac and still farm honor/reputation) to reach egoistical goals. A duo that just doesn't work as I often tried to demonstrate in the past.

The fact is that the PvP in WoW doesn't exist. The war doesn't exist. It's all faked in a sort of detached arcade mode that roleplays itself, taking place somewhere else in the form of a detached, instanced zone. The PvP isn't consistent, despite the two factions are at war from the "lore" point of view, they aren't in the game. They don't fight over something. They don't conquer nor control (at least in the BGs, on the PvP servers the situation was better before they introduced the honor points). So it's obvious how the whole and only purpose of the PvP is just the personal gain. A personal gain that can easily be exploited since the "war" exists just as a false excuse. As a pretence.

Example.I am in badlands as rogue grinding ogres.Another rogue shows up.I dont feel like sharing the mobs with this enemy.I gank the other rogue.

COnsequence?

Some seconds later the rogues reappears( nightelf,ubber fast) and continues to kill my mobs.I run over to him again and kill him again.Some seconds later, he reappears and continues too.After 2 -3deats he stopped ignoring me, we had a 30second match.He was dead again.Some seconds later she reappeared.I was now xping of the golems and just after every single golem sneaking into the ogre area and killing him again and again and again and again(mainly as experiment ),Pvp didnt have ANY impact on this player.He wasnt a bot or anything.He was a player who got used to sit it out.Who learned
'' In WOW i can just ignore Pvp if i want because Pvp doesnt affect me the slightest beyond the 20additional seconds it will take me to run back after a death.EVentually the agressor will get tired of being ignored and wasting his/her own time.Screw it and ignore the whole pvp thing is well advertised to min/max your gains''

PS.Imo this is a testament of the complete failure of pvp.We might as well kill npcs,the Pcs in WOW have as only advantage a better Intelligence.They are just better coded mobs.Not more.I cant mock , cant talk, cant influence them in any way.May be we all play 2 different games and all these so called players are just enhanced FPS-bot scripts.SOme of them would outplay the standard player for sure

[Affinity]

A huge failure on blizzards part. The honor system was introduced as an alternative means to raiding to get similar reward. However what you have now is the same raiders steamrolling through the honor & bg system to get said rewards faster and easier in order to make their raiding progression easier. And I don't know how it was missed. Did they really think the masses would be organized? The best organization seen comes from guilds who can raid, who know how to work together because they have been doing it their whole MMORPG tenor. However you introduce a 'casual' element to the game for 'casual' unorganized players that requires organization of type raid guild in order to counter the organization of same people from the other side.

I don't know how it was on other servers, but when the battlegrounds first came out, I found them quite fun. Often it was 4-5-6 battles, when the raid guilds brushed BGs off as inferior to raiding for loot. However after the rewards were discovered and then bumped to raid-equivalent loot, they came flooding in and did what they do best: win. So it worked for the first couple weeks, when the casuals got their wishes, but when an organized group who 'gets shit done' comes in, the casuals lack the ability to counter it, giving the other side an almost effortless win. And like the OP posted, the system is so flawed that the 'pros' know how to extract the rewards a fast as possible, and thats to avoid the opposite factions 'pros'. Blizzard comes out the idiot, the targeted casuals come out the losers.

[Luthair]

This topic comes up all the time, until players are penalized for leaving before a reasonable amount of time is elapsed or perhaps a lockout timer, there isn't an incentive to stay.

I've suggested previously an entry fee which is returned after either side wins and/or after a fixed amount of time.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by kasey

PS.Imo this is a testament of the complete failure of pvp.We might as well kill npcs,the Pcs in WOW have as only advantage a better Intelligence.They are just better coded mobs.Not more.I cant mock , cant talk, cant influence them in any way.May be we all play 2 different games and all these so called players are just enhanced FPS-bot scripts.SOme of them would outplay the standard player for sure

It's a bullshit example due to rez timers.

If you really do whack someone over and over and over their rez timer gets ridiculously high.

Try dying a lot in AV, it can get over 5 minutes.

[Shinrai]

You are possibly correct in your identification of the problem. The more interesting question is how you can have "consequences" without them including the potential for griefing and exposing the faction imbalances. Indeed rewarding the victors aggravates imbalances. I would argue that WoW PvP is `neutered' because they are clever enough to realise that permanent results from it will cause more complaints that satisfaction.

For my own part I think MMORPG and PvP just should not be mixed, and Blizzards vision of PvP as a "sideshow" is as good as you are going to get. The reason being that class / power balance, and the inability to easily re-configure / explore alternatives, means that MMORPG's are an awful PvP environment. Something like guildwars is better (but damn the PvE is dull) because your investment can be used to widen your alternatives which increases the variety and means that the environment can be changed (powers extended / rebalanced) without destroying someones investment in their character... although I do wonder how well GW is doing, because there's also a cost to reducing a persons ties to their character.

[Antarius]

Originally Posted by Shinrai

For my own part I think MMORPG and PvP just should not be mixed, and Blizzards vision of PvP as a "sideshow" is as good as you are going to get. The reason being that class / power balance, and the inability to easily re-configure / explore alternatives, means that MMORPG's are an awful PvP environment. Something like guildwars is better (but damn the PvE is dull) because your investment can be used to widen your alternatives which increases the variety and means that the environment can be changed (powers extended / rebalanced) without destroying someones investment in their character... although I do wonder how well GW is doing, because there's also a cost to reducing a persons ties to their character.

Everquest had a pretty good system going with Sullon Zek. Tangible exp loss for death. Who needs a reward to pvp. Causing others to suffer is it's own rewards.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Antarius

Everquest had a pretty good system going with Sullon Zek. Tangible exp loss for death. Who needs a reward to pvp. Causing others to suffer is it's own rewards.

That's why UO was the best. Players governed the shards, massive anti-PK alliances, looting, houses with loot that made people incredibly attached, geographical domination....

<3 UO.

[redav]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

It's a bullshit example due to rez timers.

If you really do whack someone over and over and over their rez timer gets ridiculously high.

Try dying a lot in AV, it can get over 5 minutes.

Last time I checked the longest your rez can be delayed is 2 minutes, in normal pvp. Battlegrounds rezs though are handled completely different and get extremely buggy.

[Obtenor]

Simple solution:

If you /afk or port out of a WSG instance you are docked 2k honor.

Hearthing is ok (1 hour cooldown), so you either fight or fight.