WoW instances based off random seed?

Nerion · 08-31-2005, 12:17 AM

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7780/loot2li8oa.jpg

Dunno if this GM knows what he is talking about or not but still interesting...

marketa · 08-31-2005, 12:50 AM

In our testing this seems pretty fucking true. Run DM with people that find books, find more books.

Change leaders for onyxia/rag = dont get the same stuff.

Malakriss · 08-31-2005, 12:52 AM

Any basic level programmer that's had experience with random number generators knows this. Unless you set the random "Seed" number to be based off the system clock (which is always changing) then you'll get the same numbers every time you run a program. Simply put, if you used the number "9" as your random seed number, then using that generate 10 "random" numbers you'll get:

7 4 3 1 9 5 2 8 6

And the next time you run the program if you're using the same constant "9" seed:

7 4 3 1 9 5 2 8 6

I guess this is just confirming that when a raid ID is established, all the loot for the zone is generated then also. This also explains why for the first few months of farming MC, guilds tended to get mostly the same loot (Druid/Warlock ftw). Ever since the workaround to get raid IDs working as intended came out, people have been reseting their raid IDs and actually getting a diverse loot table.

Of course, since we've been using that trick for the past 2 months and reseting our IDs/loot tables, we still managed to go 12 Eye of Divinity's in a row before dropping our first leaf. So even despite changing seeds, their RNG for loot still sucks.

Gar · 08-31-2005, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Ever since the workaround to get raid IDs working as intended came out, people have been reseting their raid IDs and actually getting a diverse loot table.

What workaround?

Wodin · 08-31-2005, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gar

What workaround?

Raid leader + a couple other people zone in. Other people zone in. Raid leader zones back out, zones in again. If he zones into a different instance, everyone zones out and back in. If not, you've got a new id.

boy- · 08-31-2005, 03:27 AM

The easy way to know for sure is check when people get those rollback bugs just after killing a mob. It's happened before, kill Garr, do the loot, have an instance crash, and you log back in with a repopped Garr. If the loot that drops again is the same, then your theory is correct. I'll bet money that drops will be different however, I'm pretty sure I recall some guild whining once that they lost something in a crash and got something else instead.

My guild has never done anything actively to change our raidids ever since the same-raidid bug occured, and we've never seen anything to indicate even remotely similar loottables from week to week. Even on Onyxia, where it would be blindingly obvious, since you know, there's a whopping 1 lootmob in there, I've seen no evidence of this happening -- and I've been the raidleader for the past 12 onyxias. Before the raidid bug, and after the raidid bug (we don't keep our raids saved for onyxia, or after rag dies), our loot histories just show no evidence of this at all.

I really think people are trying to see even more things that aren't there.

Avatar16789 · 08-31-2005, 03:59 AM

In 17 Rag kills, we have had 1 weapon ( Perd ), and 14 shaman leggings ( Five kills he has dropped two pairs of shaman legs ), 1 rogue legs, 0 warrior legs, 5 mage legs, 3 priest legs, 5 warlock legs, 0 hunter legs, 6 druid legs.

As well we have been killing Golemagg since March, and have yet to see a single ingot, while other guilds on our server who have just started to kill have gotten six in a row ( One has dropped every kill ).

We haven't had Shazz drop nightslayer boots once since we started farming him in March, we have gotten seven in a row the last 7 kills.

Geddon and Lucifron have dropped mage / druid items for the past 5 kills in a row as well.
I don't know exactly what it is, but something is fucked up.

Faille · 08-31-2005, 04:23 AM

So if you get a good series of drops do you try and keep that ID so that you continue to get those good drops every week?

jev · 08-31-2005, 04:26 AM

We have suspected for a while that we're more likely to get certain drops than we should be (and we always have the same raid leader). For example, we've experienced over twice the drop rate on mageblades than any other guild on the server over a sustained period. Every mage or warlock had a mageblade or SoD - That's the good side of it.
But over the 18 Onyxia kills I actually have loot records for, we've had 33% drop rate on Ring of Binding and 22% on Shard of the Scale, compared to 15% and 4% listed on alla. (And 0% on Deathbringer and Vis'kag of course). We're now wondering if we've screwed ourselves by not changing raid leader from week to week.

The problem is you can't prove anything with random drops. It could just be lucky/unlucky streaks.

Gar · 08-31-2005, 05:20 AM

These are kind of topics you would like some feedback from tigule+foror, since it's god damn annoying to get your 10th druid piece that gets dusted.

Kasonic · 08-31-2005, 05:33 AM

It would be nice to get a straight up response. Either "Yes, the raid leader's ID is part of the RNG algorithim" or "No, our RNG is just streaky to the point of being a rather lousy RNG."

Letting us know what to switch up will solve this problem faster than their programmers coming up with a new RNG system.

Kolle · 08-31-2005, 05:50 AM

It would be nice to choose your loots from bosses instead of getting so much random or streaky drops that things go to waste. I suggest during beta that each major raid boss should have a npc or small script associated with it that would allow people to choose loots.

Creediki · 08-31-2005, 06:02 AM

Any game system set up so that it is a statistical certainty that at least one guild will get nothing but druid/warlock loot is fucked up and should be shot.

The problem isn't streaks or no streaks. The problem is that items linked to progression are tied to the RNG. Even if it wasn't streaky it would still be an unacceptable mechanism.

Desidero · 08-31-2005, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kolle

It would be nice to choose your loots from bosses instead of getting so much random or streaky drops that things go to waste. I suggest during beta that each major raid boss should have a npc or small script associated with it that would allow people to choose loots.

The text choices and whether or not you saved that one ghost in Inktu'ta determining one of the Noq loots worked pretty well and didn't spoil everything for people that didn't want a "pick your loot" menu. Even if you decide you don't want a guaranteed loot choice system, it is easy to make it a little more random by having sequences of choices random 2-3 loots instead of 10-15 or however many you want.

rukidding · 08-31-2005, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kolle

It would be nice to choose your loots from bosses instead of getting so much random or streaky drops that things go to waste. I suggest during beta that each major raid boss should have a npc or small script associated with it that would allow people to choose loots.

Or, how about an npc that trades set pieces for set pieces? Instead of deciding which initiate druid/warlock to fully equip, we could trade all that Cenarion/Felheart for some Prophecy.

Face reality, they will never be able to get loot drops to approximately account for the thousands of guilds running raids. Some guilds have 10 shaman, some have 10 priests. Letting loot rot, or having very NEEDED classes fight over loot, is very frustrating, and it is beyond time that they find a fix.

08-31-2005, 12:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
Nerion likes to hear himself talk Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 368	WoW instance's loot based off group leader? http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7780/loot2li8oa.jpg Dunno if this GM knows what he is talking about or not but still interesting... Last edited by Nerion : 08-31-2005 at 12:43 AM.

08-31-2005, 04:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
Faille Fires of Heaven Officer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,654 +12 Internets	So if you get a good series of drops do you try and keep that ID so that you continue to get those good drops every week? __________________ Faille Fires of Heaven http://www.fohguild.org/forums/uberw...lopment-forum/

08-31-2005, 04:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
jev Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 7 +0 Internets	We have suspected for a while that we're more likely to get certain drops than we should be (and we always have the same raid leader). For example, we've experienced over twice the drop rate on mageblades than any other guild on the server over a sustained period. Every mage or warlock had a mageblade or SoD - That's the good side of it. But over the 18 Onyxia kills I actually have loot records for, we've had 33% drop rate on Ring of Binding and 22% on Shard of the Scale, compared to 15% and 4% listed on alla. (And 0% on Deathbringer and Vis'kag of course). We're now wondering if we've screwed ourselves by not changing raid leader from week to week. The problem is you can't prove anything with random drops. It could just be lucky/unlucky streaks. Last edited by jev : 08-31-2005 at 04:29 AM.

08-31-2005, 05:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
Gar euro-bastard, sorry for the typos. :-p Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 256 +0 Internets	These are kind of topics you would like some feedback from tigule+foror, since it's god damn annoying to get your 10th druid piece that gets dusted. __________________ -- yeah right.

08-31-2005, 06:02 AM	#13 (permalink)
Creediki Fires of Heaven WoW Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 415 +4 Internets	Any game system set up so that it is a statistical certainty that at least one guild will get nothing but druid/warlock loot is fucked up and should be shot. The problem isn't streaks or no streaks. The problem is that items linked to progression are tied to the RNG. Even if it wasn't streaky it would still be an unacceptable mechanism. __________________ Fires of Heaven ****************** Who Dares Wins

08-31-2005, 12:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
marketa Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Tucson, Az Posts: 94 +0 Internets	In our testing this seems pretty fucking true. Run DM with people that find books, find more books. Change leaders for onyxia/rag = dont get the same stuff.

08-31-2005, 12:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
Malakriss Your lack of intelligence is an insult to humanity. Get a fucking clue Join Date: May 2002 Location: Obviousville Posts: 2,643	Any basic level programmer that's had experience with random number generators knows this. Unless you set the random "Seed" number to be based off the system clock (which is always changing) then you'll get the same numbers every time you run a program. Simply put, if you used the number "9" as your random seed number, then using that generate 10 "random" numbers you'll get: 7 4 3 1 9 5 2 8 6 And the next time you run the program if you're using the same constant "9" seed: 7 4 3 1 9 5 2 8 6 I guess this is just confirming that when a raid ID is established, all the loot for the zone is generated then also. This also explains why for the first few months of farming MC, guilds tended to get mostly the same loot (Druid/Warlock ftw). Ever since the workaround to get raid IDs working as intended came out, people have been reseting their raid IDs and actually getting a diverse loot table. Of course, since we've been using that trick for the past 2 months and reseting our IDs/loot tables, we still managed to go 12 Eye of Divinity's in a row before dropping our first leaf. So even despite changing seeds, their RNG for loot still sucks.

08-31-2005, 03:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
boy- Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 267 +0 Internets	The easy way to know for sure is check when people get those rollback bugs just after killing a mob. It's happened before, kill Garr, do the loot, have an instance crash, and you log back in with a repopped Garr. If the loot that drops again is the same, then your theory is correct. I'll bet money that drops will be different however, I'm pretty sure I recall some guild whining once that they lost something in a crash and got something else instead. My guild has never done anything actively to change our raidids ever since the same-raidid bug occured, and we've never seen anything to indicate even remotely similar loottables from week to week. Even on Onyxia, where it would be blindingly obvious, since you know, there's a whopping 1 lootmob in there, I've seen no evidence of this happening -- and I've been the raidleader for the past 12 onyxias. Before the raidid bug, and after the raidid bug (we don't keep our raids saved for onyxia, or after rag dies), our loot histories just show no evidence of this at all. I really think people are trying to see even more things that aren't there.

08-31-2005, 03:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
Avatar16789 Banned Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 102 +0 Internets	In 17 Rag kills, we have had 1 weapon ( Perd ), and 14 shaman leggings ( Five kills he has dropped two pairs of shaman legs ), 1 rogue legs, 0 warrior legs, 5 mage legs, 3 priest legs, 5 warlock legs, 0 hunter legs, 6 druid legs. As well we have been killing Golemagg since March, and have yet to see a single ingot, while other guilds on our server who have just started to kill have gotten six in a row ( One has dropped every kill ). We haven't had Shazz drop nightslayer boots once since we started farming him in March, we have gotten seven in a row the last 7 kills. Geddon and Lucifron have dropped mage / druid items for the past 5 kills in a row as well. I don't know exactly what it is, but something is fucked up.

08-31-2005, 05:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
Kasonic dumb Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,627 +1 Internets	It would be nice to get a straight up response. Either "Yes, the raid leader's ID is part of the RNG algorithim" or "No, our RNG is just streaky to the point of being a rather lousy RNG." Letting us know what to switch up will solve this problem faster than their programmers coming up with a new RNG system.

08-31-2005, 05:50 AM	#12 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	It would be nice to choose your loots from bosses instead of getting so much random or streaky drops that things go to waste. I suggest during beta that each major raid boss should have a npc or small script associated with it that would allow people to choose loots.

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