What the fuck is wrong with the raiding guilds out there

[Zignor 2]

Let's hear from some WoW end-gamers who were also EQ1 end-gamers... how does it feel now versus then? The same? Better? Worse?

Raiding in WoW - taken on its own - was less fun than in EQ for sure. But for me, that had little to do with a lack of competition, and nearly everything to do with WoW's raid design, difficulty, and path of progression.

[kasey]

Originally Posted by Cad

Instances = everyone gets to play
Outside = One guild per spawn gets to play, usually going to be the same one


Gee I wonder why blizzard wants everyone to enjoy their content not simply the 40 most hardcore on each server.

Way to generalize everything.How about just more stuff to kill?With spawntimers set up in a way to grant guilds stuff to do at all times.It should be limited and one world.The question is how limited, what is the target number of the devs.How many raiders should be supported.And on top of that you can always put events in a la ring of fire (prenerf) if really everything is dead.
Scripts, events.FFa areas infront of the bosses with 1 hour lockout once your guild owned all others.SO you earn the right to try for 1hour in peace.The limit is the sky,your mind.

I want a comunity,when i zone into a Dungeon_01 there should be campers.Idiots.Morons who train.Trash talk in general chat.Discussions (wtf you trained me, dont group with him*Wth wasnt my fault,this greedy 60 who farms gear for his alt trained me first!* WTF u noob, i will make sure you wont ever get into a good guild*)People should AFFECT eachother.I should be able to communicate with my opponents.The comunity gets totally destroyed by only interacting inbetween the adventures with eachother and not actually meeting people WHILE xping questing adventuring.

I would have never gotten such a good laugh out of Sam deathwalker if i didnt meet him in game.Same with fansy.Same with many crazy people.That one dude who could solo farm stuff a full group would wipe on.That ubber group who spammed the whole zone with * A reet knight summons mezmur* WTF is a reet knight?????That is a comunity.When out of nothing unplanned things happen, created by humans.Mass online roleplay game. Anyone remember the Iksar who ran naked from Halas to Cabilis?Why did this all feel much more like a comunity.

Where choosing the right people for your dungeon group would mean either awasted day or a great day of fun.I remember me having a clue about everyone who was LFG.Either did i group with that person myself or i heard already some things or i would throw the name into the guildchat to check their reputation.Nowadays people make ninja loot contest and post it on the official forums to show off with their crime.

In everquest you could only sell your char on ebay if you did that.And then the person buying the char will be screwed cause everyone wil project their hate on the poor buyer.We should ask ourselfs what exactly made the everquest comunity and raiding so interesting and copy that.With a smooth version of roadblocks, a rallos alike mob just begs for the *40 hardcore crackahs* to block it.

I agree with you on the part where only 40 people can enjoy the highend content.But this can be countered with both quality and quantity.KInda done with WOrld of Casualcraft but the next game i buy for sure needs to be smarter at comunity managment.WHo wants to be king of the kids?I dont.

[needraRZ]

Personally I feel Instancing has made it possible for my friends and I to still enjoy 'end game' content in games like EQ/WOW.

I too miss the thrill of racing to spawns, and the satisfaction of knowing you've collected 4+ ST keys in one night progressing your guild in the face of competition.

But I'd willingly give that up for the ability to experience all the game has to offer without having to sacrifice my life outside of Wow. My EQ guild killed quarm several weeks after the first guilds, so we were only slightly behind the curve of the 'ubers', but in WOW we're really enjoying the fact that we're starting MC soon, and can plan the raids to have everyone online to share the fun.

Even better, we dont have to have a huuuuuuge roster so that we have 40+ people perma ready to jump on any key spawn that appears.

One thing I would say is that WoW should have some mechanism for really _skilled_ players to differenciate themselves from the pack. Maybe one 5 man or 10 man dungeon that is very very difficult with good rewards. Or items that can be combined with MC/BWL drops for unique looks or effects.

The danger with ultra hard zones is that its difficult to avoid designing a zone that requires warrior/healer1/healer2/CC + 1 stooge to make it possible.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by kasey

Way to generalize everything.How about just more stuff to kill?With spawntimers set up in a way to grant guilds stuff to do at all times.It should be limited and one world.The question is how limited, what is the target number of the devs.How many raiders should be supported.And on top of that you can always put events in a la ring of fire (prenerf) if really everything is dead.
Scripts, events.FFa areas infront of the bosses with 1 hour lockout once your guild owned all others.SO you earn the right to try for 1hour in peace.The limit is the sky,your mind.

I want a comunity,when i zone into a Dungeon_01 there should be campers.Idiots.Morons who train.Trash talk in general chat.Discussions (wtf you trained me, dont group with him*Wth wasnt my fault,this greedy 60 who farms gear for his alt trained me first!* WTF u noob, i will make sure you wont ever get into a good guild*)People should AFFECT eachother.I should be able to communicate with my opponents.The comunity gets totally destroyed by only interacting inbetween the adventures with eachother and not actually meeting people WHILE xping questing adventuring.

I would have never gotten such a good laugh out of Sam deathwalker if i didnt meet him in game.Same with fansy.Same with many crazy people.That one dude who could solo farm stuff a full group would wipe on.That ubber group who spammed the whole zone with * A reet knight summons mezmur* WTF is a reet knight?????That is a comunity.When out of nothing unplanned things happen, created by humans.Mass online roleplay game. Anyone remember the Iksar who ran naked from Halas to Cabilis?Why did this all feel much more like a comunity.

Where choosing the right people for your dungeon group would mean either awasted day or a great day of fun.I remember me having a clue about everyone who was LFG.Either did i group with that person myself or i heard already some things or i would throw the name into the guildchat to check their reputation.Nowadays people make ninja loot contest and post it on the official forums to show off with their crime.

In everquest you could only sell your char on ebay if you did that.And then the person buying the char will be screwed cause everyone wil project their hate on the poor buyer.We should ask ourselfs what exactly made the everquest comunity and raiding so interesting and copy that.With a smooth version of roadblocks, a rallos alike mob just begs for the *40 hardcore crackahs* to block it.

I agree with you on the part where only 40 people can enjoy the highend content.But this can be countered with both quality and quantity.KInda done with WOrld of Casualcraft but the next game i buy for sure needs to be smarter at comunity managment.WHo wants to be king of the kids?I dont.

Your version of community works when you have 60-80 hours a week to raid and do things which are blocked. I, and many like me, do not. I probably get to play 20 hours a week. If I log in at my raid time, I probably have 4.5, maybe 5 hours to raid before I have to get to bed and wake up and go to work the next day. If I logged in to raid and we were blocked by 40 idiots doing the same thing, that doesn't work. What do I do then? Go farm money? Play an alt? Right. I do that anyway when we don't have raids. I want to raid.

For you, it's probably like "oh well lets chat with the guys, get to know them, train some mobs on them, and they'll leave and we can do our thing!" ......... 6 hours later, you're doing your thing. I'm long asleep by that time.

WoW has intelligently realized that yes, it can be fun to have people affect each other, but it's also a greifers paradise. How many priests just sit in BRM and mind control people into the lava? It's funny for the priest, but does nothing for the game other than cause people needless greif. What you propose is that you not only be able to do this to the opposite faction (I'm on a PvP server) but your own faction as well?

Have fun in vanguard if thats what they do, because I and many like me will NOT be there.

[Searos]

OMGZ, where has all the elite MMO gamers gone!?~

Seriously, this is why I don’t like WoW. Not only is the game seriously dulled down, but also there's no sense of accomplishment in it. It was a hell of a lot more fun coming here listening to FoH bitch about impossible PoP encounters and threatening SoE to delete the most famous of all MMO raiders and thinking, wow i can't wait to be in their shoes and bitch about this too, because honestly, stuff like that is more memorable. It's like summer camp when you're a kid and all week you bitch about it only to go home and think, hey that was pretty cool. WoW killed this mentality.

[Gamblor]

Originally Posted by FuckYou

New raid zone??? Come on in! Fuck linear progression!

Let's hear from some WoW end-gamers who were also EQ1 end-gamers... how does it feel now versus then? The same? Better? Worse?

Progression would work a lot better if it was had more than two fucking zones that look like they're going to each take a day to clear.

Coming from EQ, WoW raiding is frustrating as fuck not because of difficulty, but because they make the same goddamn mistakes sony did 5 years go and fixed with velious. As far as the actual killing and learning bosses thing, meh. Most victories seem hollow.

That mind control the dragon and deal with a ring event at the same time is the first thing in WoW that didn't feel like a total rehash of an EQ boss.

[FuckYou]

imo:

require progression via mob kills / keys
instance progression mobs
un-instance loot mobs

[Suineg]

STFU you noobs sounding like B.Net kiddies.

Raiding was not meant to be handed to you. Stop saying that everyone that doesn't like instancing means they are a group of 50 pimply teenagers with no damn life!!!

Most of us have families and jobs and stuff. Personally I go to work, working on an onling degree, and take care of my 4 year old twins 3 nights a week and I am still raiding just fine in EQ1.

I knew instances would be shit to begin with and I preached it nonstop and was called an idiot for it.

[Cad]

Originally Posted by Beauti

STFU you noobs sounding like B.Net kiddies.

Raiding was not meant to be handed to you. Stop saying that everyone that doesn't like instancing means they are a group of 50 pimply teenagers with no damn life!!!

Most of us have families and jobs and stuff. Personally I go to work, working on an onling degree, and take care of my 4 year old twins 3 nights a week and I am still raiding just fine in EQ1.

I knew instances would be shit to begin with and I preached it nonstop and was called an idiot for it.

Heaven forbid we break out of the EQ1 paradigm of uberguilds "running" a server, spawn rotations, and training and go to where a guild can get together and raid without being cockblocked by the others on the server.

I mean, I would hate to play a game where I actually get to play and don't have to deal with no-lifers attempting to stop me.

[Etadanik]

There is a general trend of a more casual slant to the gaming industry. It does not limit itself to MMORPGs. It has also served to enlarge the market of the industry, or at least marketing believes so, which in turn reinforced the need to "dumb" things down, so to speak, so that the accumulated audiences could be reached. WoW and EQ2 are not aberrations. The MMOG genre is not the exception. You will find no more "casual friendliness" in the flagship games of this genre than the flagship games of other genres. Oh sure, in those genres there are things such as difficulty sliders that can potentially challenge you, but they're still an afterthought tacked onto games that are designed to be short, fast, and graphically impressive - the hallmarks of a successful casual game. And this, by the way, is straight from the horse's mouth - that is, the design documents of triple-A developers.

Do I hate casual gamers as a result? Heck no, because I am one. Do I hate power gamers then? No, because I've been one. Yet I'm no pacifist - I've railed against power gamers back in EQ and how they dominated the end game and were catered to, and I've spoken against casual gamers and their "silver platter" attitude in WoW. To tell you the truth, this entire back-and-forth thing is meaningless - developers aren't the ones who's in charge in a company like Sony/Blizzard. Marketing is.

You could argue that the gaming industry was doomed to be easy entertainment the moment it went commercial, and you would be mostly right, as most people in the world view games, like they view movies and books, as avenues of relaxation and good fun, not places of artistic achievements or philosophical debates or, in the case of games, hardcore worlds. No, those things are bullshit, and just as many people consider Shakespeare bullshit, moreso will they consider a hardcore MMOG. Deal with it, for this is the end result of freedom, the conclusion of choice: that most people, when given the option, will choose the path of least resistance. Life is shallow, and people are in it for shallow reasons.

But at the same time, take heart. After all, just because art films aren't summer blockbusters, don't mean they aren't made or respected by those who love them. Just because literature doesn't sell like Harry Potter, doesn't mean it isn't written or studied. And just because hardcore MMOGs won't make the killing WoW has, doesn't mean it's obsolete and will never again be produced. Sure, now that people have a choice, they won't be forced to play them or nothing, but that just means those who will play and stay will be like-minded individuals. Hopefully, that is for the better, though I reckon that some people do play games for the sake of feeling better than the masses of casual newbies, in which case perhaps you're better off sticking with WoW and trying to convince Blizzard to put in more esoteric and excruciating cockblocks in order to differentiate the "men" from the "boys". For those who are looking for a real challenge and who have more time to blow, though, I reckon Vanguard might be your next step - assuming Brad isn't lying.

Me? I'm looking for neither. WoW is a nice distraction. Vanguard maybe worth a try. None of them will capture the magic of EQ, if EQ to you was ever truly magical. The real deal lies elsewhere. No, not real life - I'm not one one of those condescending fanatics of real life ironically still living in their parents' basements. Not from any established, market-conscious company, either, I'd reckon. But from someone new, someone brave, who'll take a risk and in the process bring gaming to the next level as EQ had done. Not necessarily a game that totally departs from existing practices, but rather a game that doesn't try to fix problems or find solutions. Rather, a game that defines a whole new set of problems by the virtue of its innovation.

I'm looking for a true next generation MMORPG, unlike anything that's been done before, and which I can enjoy (Tales of the Desert *is* revolutionary, but I don't quite enjoy it). I reckon I maybe waiting for a long time, or maybe not, because these things tend to happen without warning.

[Dis]

Originally Posted by Etadanik

There is a general trend of a more casual slant to the gaming industry. It does not limit itself to MMORPGs. It has also served to enlarge the market of the industry, or at least marketing believes so, which in turn reinforced the need to "dumb" things down, so to speak, so that the accumulated audiences could be reached. WoW and EQ2 are not aberrations. The MMOG genre is not the exception. You will find no more "casual friendliness" in the flagship games of this genre than the flagship games of other genres. Oh sure, in those genres there are things such as difficulty sliders that can potentially challenge you, but they're still an afterthought tacked onto games that are designed to be short, fast, and graphically impressive - the hallmarks of a successful casual game. And this, by the way, is straight from the horse's mouth - that is, the design documents of triple-A developers.

Do I hate casual gamers as a result? Heck no, because I am one. Do I hate power gamers then? No, because I've been one. Yet I'm no pacifist - I've railed against power gamers back in EQ and how they dominated the end game and were catered to, and I've spoken against casual gamers and their "silver platter" attitude in WoW. To tell you the truth, this entire back-and-forth thing is meaningless - developers aren't the ones who's in charge in a company like Sony/Blizzard. Marketing is.

You could argue that the gaming industry was doomed to be easy entertainment the moment it went commercial, and you would be mostly right, as most people in the world view games, like they view movies and books, as avenues of relaxation and good fun, not places of artistic achievements or philosophical debates or, in the case of games, hardcore worlds. No, those things are bullshit, and just as many people consider Shakespeare bullshit, moreso will they consider a hardcore MMOG. Deal with it, for this is the end result of freedom, the conclusion of choice: that most people, when given the option, will choose the path of least resistance. Life is shallow, and people are in it for shallow reasons.

But at the same time, take heart. After all, just because art films aren't summer blockbusters, don't mean they aren't made or respected by those who love them. Just because literature doesn't sell like Harry Potter, doesn't mean it isn't written or studied. And just because hardcore MMOGs won't make the killing WoW has, doesn't mean it's obsolete and will never again be produced. Sure, now that people have a choice, they won't be forced to play them or nothing, but that just means those who will play and stay will be like-minded individuals. Hopefully, that is for the better, though I reckon that some people do play games for the sake of feeling better than the masses of casual newbies, in which case perhaps you're better off sticking with WoW and trying to convince Blizzard to put in more esoteric and excruciating cockblocks in order to differentiate the "men" from the "boys". For those who are looking for a real challenge and who have more time to blow, though, I reckon Vanguard might be your next step - assuming Brad isn't lying.

Me? I'm looking for neither. WoW is a nice distraction. Vanguard maybe worth a try. None of them will capture the magic of EQ, if EQ to you was ever truly magical. The real deal lies elsewhere. No, not real life - I'm not one one of those condescending fanatics of real life ironically still living in their parents' basements. Not from any established, market-conscious company, either, I'd reckon. But from someone new, someone brave, who'll take a risk and in the process bring gaming to the next level as EQ had done. Not necessarily a game that totally departs from existing practices, but rather a game that doesn't try to fix problems or find solutions. Rather, a game that defines a whole new set of problems by the virtue of its innovation.

I'm looking for a true next generation MMORPG, unlike anything that's been done before, and which I can enjoy (Tales of the Desert *is* revolutionary, but I don't quite enjoy it). I reckon I maybe waiting for a long time, or maybe not, because these things tend to happen without warning.

So what you are saying is the video game industry (which includes MMO's obviously) is headed the same general path the Music and Movie industry have taken. I agree.

I fear for our future:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=9953

[Kalamos]

Originally Posted by leane

Big problem is population....
There is 2 million people in WOW and the servers handle a larger population than EQ ever did...
Non instanced zones are great to control and slow down high end guilds but what happens when you have 15 guilds competeing for it? you'll end up with a 3 month rotation on Rag. WoW needs the instancing for this stuff, could you imagine the disaster it would be if strath was non instanced? have 2000 people in there camping everything that moved....

I agree with this 100%. I've never really liked the idea of instancing, but in WoW I'd have to agree that it's absolutely necessary.

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by FuckYou

Perhaps people have "access to the sandbox" because MC and BWL have no key reqs? If you left them instanced but had ragnaros drop 40 keys for BWL you would only have 50... 100 guilds game-wide in BWL. This is because even though you give fucktards free, instanced access to MC and show them videos of how to win only the truly motivated people do it. There is no skill involved anymore in accessing raid content. New raid zone??? Come on in! Fuck linear progression!

I agree. I never had a shitload of time to play EQ. I worked full time my entire EQ career. Since I was not there from the beginning, it took me a long time to catch up and get into anything approaching a bleeding edge guild. Yet I worked hard when I could play and I was raiding in ToV, although not north, during Velious. I was rarely if ever in a position to block another guild from content. In fact if anything I was more often on the receiving end of the blockage. And even though my full set of skyshrine armor seemed gimp compared to what the NToV/sleepers guilds were wearing, I was fucking proud of it. I was proud of my epic. And when I saw another wizard in full faction armor with his epic there was respect. There was a bond. I fucking KNEW man, I knew. I knew what he had been through and I respected it. The wizards who didn't have an epic knew too and sent you tells like "Nice epic! I hope I can get one someday." In WoW people see my Lava Dredger and once in a while a level 15 shaman who just rolled that day will ask "Where can I get one of those and can I solo it?" Hell, the wizard epic was generally considered one of the easiest epics by the time I got one. When you saw a mage epic you KNEW TIMES TEN!!! Even though you had never done the fucking quest!!! When someone got their epic the chat window would explode with "grats" and none of them were more meaningful and heartfelt than the ones from the people who had been there too.

Of course this is all just time and dedication right? Any number of other people might have had epics sooner if the mobs were always available and always dropped the piece right? Wrong. In FFXI when I saw someone with a level 70 + job, I KNEW MAN! I knew they had gone into an instanced burning circle, capped at level 65, and went toe to toe with Maat the NPC who was using the same job as you. They walked into that circle armed with every spoiler on the internet and every expensive potion and food/drink in the auction house. And most people still lost at least the first time. If they wanted level 71 though, they got groups together, went and farmed the trivial mobs (that are always up somewhere) for the rare drops that allowed you another shot. When you saw someone else who was level 71+ you knew man, you fucking knew. You knew they had mastered their character enough to have friends to help on the farming and to beat Maat in a hardcore balls out death match. Cockblocking by other players is never an issue in any part of this road, yet the destination is a major accomplishment. Because it was a fucking hard road. Because you KNEW that anyone who had traveled that same road had endured a fuck of a lot of frustration and failure. And I bet the servers' chat logs still ring this very day with cries of "WOOT! MAAT DEAD!" followed by the heartfelt "grats!" of every online friend and shell member.

When was the last time you heard "WOOT! QM DEAD!!!" Never. Not seriously. Not with any real emotion. When was the last time you sent someone a tell congratulating them on getting BWL, or hell even Onyx access? In a month when half the server is running around in BWL gear what will this gear mean? It won't mean shit because there is no fucking PROGRESSION. I really thought that there would be after the Onyx key and the old attunement to the core quest. Attunement should have been mandatory five manning of BRD for each member of the guild who wanted to raid MC, and it should have stayed that way. Hell yes BWL access should require a key fashioned from a Rag and Onyx drop for each member. Even if they dropped a piece for everyone on the raid it would be more progression than the current aborted fetus that is in game. This doesn't cockblock the casual and part time guilds from content. It doesn't force you do join the army to see the end game zones. But it does require a commitment. You have to pay your fucking dues before you can sit at the big kids' table for dinner. And when you see another guild is in BWL for the first time you think "good for them". Maybe you even send one of them a tell saying "grats!". Because you KNOW! Because now there is a bond past the fact that you both paid your subscription and logged in that night. You wear the same scars and you are brothers and the time has come to collect a trophy for it. As it stands, all you see when you see a new guild in BWL is 40 people who book marked the URL of a dozen WoW sites.

[Soygen]

Originally Posted by Cad

Heaven forbid we break out of the EQ1 paradigm of uberguilds "running" a server, spawn rotations, and training and go to where a guild can get together and raid without being cockblocked by the others on the server.

I mean, I would hate to play a game where I actually get to play and don't have to deal with no-lifers attempting to stop me.

Did you even fucking read what he said? First off, you already stated you never played EQ, so STFU. Every single progression mob in the last two expansions in Everquest is instanced. The difference is that the instanced stuff in EQ1 is still challenging.

[Mkopec1]

I dont think its all instancing which is making the raid game easy, although it definitely has something to do with it.

In EQ, just getting to the end game zones was a challenge and a accomplishment. Yeah the key quests were boring and long drawn out camps, but it just reinforced that if you work hard at it, you will get there and you will be rewarded. It was a huge accomplishment to get your guild keyed up.

WoW has none of this type of keing up, even pre-requisite requirements to be met.

In EQ in order to do NTOV you had to at least have some of the Velious quest armor...etc. And in order to do Luclin shit you had to have NTOV shit....and so on. There was pre-requisites to be met before your guild moved on.

What are the pre-requisites to be in MC?

How bout BWL? There is none!