cascading instances

dumdee777 · 07-12-2005, 02:49 AM

this has been a big issue lately, just curious what you guys think of it. btw if your not familiar with it, here's a post about it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...mp=1#post52022

Grimmlokk · 07-12-2005, 03:56 AM

I love that people came up with a more fluffy and cuddly term for it so they don't feel like they're exploiting=) Resetting, rotating, exploiting, all sound so technical...I know...CASCADING! It's like a beautiful waterfall...of instance exploiting!

Not saying that I don't/didn't do it mind you=) Just not for MC. Gogo Plugger! ALso I called it Precipitating the instance because it made me feel special.

Rythonn · 07-12-2005, 04:13 AM

My question is how would they go about stopping this?

Thhin · 07-12-2005, 04:25 AM

My favorite is the people who "steal" instances and Blizz does nothing

To do it get somebody near the MC entrance (either in BRD or outside) with no /raidinfo and invite a single member of some guild that has a raid you want to steal (i'll let you figure out all the ways you can sucker one person into your group). Switch to raid, promote the peron your going to steal to leader ang jump into MC. Poof you're now saved and your guild can gank away. Now you can cascade without even haveing an alliance with a guild!

Chaid · 07-12-2005, 05:13 AM

"Working as intended" works both ways.

Fris_Leafshadow · 07-12-2005, 06:30 AM

I can't read WOW forums from work, so I assume I'm missing something w/ this.

What would be the purpose of stealing a saved point in an instance? It takes almost no time for a guild to run through the bosses in MC if they've made it to Rag. All this would do is prevent you from getting some bosses and take some from antoher guild.

Maybe if you want to be a jerk and take the final bosses from another guild.

Chaid · 07-12-2005, 06:35 AM

Here's the body of the post in the WoW forums from the link above:

Quote:

Shadow Moon is merely a medium population server that isn't home to massive behemoth guilds such as Goon Squad, Elitist Jerks, and the like. Even though Alliance outnumbers Horde, both factions have made steady progress in recent months in Molten Core. It was only on May 27th, just 10 days ago, that an Alliance guild finally took down Ragnaros after multiple grueling attempts. As such, there was much rejoicing because of the server first. And Horde followed shortly thereafter. Tonight, the guild Bloodsworn took down Ragnaros after multiple attempts as well. And there was much rejoicing for it was a Horde first on the server.

Shortly after Bloodsworn's leader, Domali, made the announcement on the Shadow Moon realm forum, another tidbit of information was revealed about Bloodsworn: they had been running Molten Core twice a week. How was this done? Bloodsworn would intentionally stagger their Molten Core raid with another Horde guild named Chaotic Fusion. Now, Bloodsworn has been able to clean out Molten Core numerous times without much trouble in the past few months, but Chaotic Fusion is a fairly new guild and their inexperience in the raid instance hinders them from getting further than Magmadar at this point. Knowing this, Bloodsworn would make sure they'd start their saved instance one day ahead of Chaotic Fusion's. So Bloodsworn would run their own saved Molten Core instance, wait for their 6-day lockout to expire, and then have Chaotic Fusion get Bloodsworn members into the Chaotic Fusion saved Molten Core instance so Bloodsworn could then kill all of the rest of the Molten Core bosses that Chaotic Fusion was unable to do. This has been done for three weeks in a row at this point.

As can be viewed from Bloodsworn's DKP raid listings (http://dkp.bloodsworn.com/listraids.php?), let's use Golemagg as an example. In the past three weeks, Bloodsworn lists having killed Golemagg on 05/20/05, 05/21/05, 05/28/05, 05/29/05, 06/03/05, and 06/04/05. Six times in three weeks. Pick another Molten Core boss like Gehennas or Garr and you'll find the same outcome with slightly differing dates.

In Bloodsworn's now-deleted thread about Horde's first Ragnaros kill, Alliance came out quite a few times to say that what Bloodsworn had exploited while members of Bloodsworn staunchly defended their actions, stating that they were taking advantage of the game's mechanics and not exploiting.

So now, the question I pose: is this exploiting or not?

Tuco · 07-12-2005, 06:43 AM

Quote:

To do it get somebody near the MC entrance (either in BRD or outside) with no /raidinfo and invite a single member of some guild that has a raid you want to steal (i'll let you figure out all the ways you can sucker one person into your group). Switch to raid, promote the peron your going to steal to leader ang jump into MC. Poof you're now saved and your guild can gank away. Now you can cascade without even haveing an alliance with a guild!

Heh, that's pretty nasty.

kaid · 07-12-2005, 06:47 AM

As long as the guild that could not clear the rest of MC knows and consents to letting the other guild to clear the rest of their instance I have no problems with this. Now if they were claim jumping and clearing the other guilds instance before they could go as far as they can go that would likely not be so much of an exploit as griefing.

kaid

rukidding · 07-12-2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaid

As long as the guild that could not clear the rest of MC knows and consents to letting the other guild to clear the rest of their instance I have no problems with this. Now if they were claim jumping and clearing the other guilds instance before they could go as far as they can go that would likely not be so much of an exploit as griefing.

kaid

Then what's the point in having raid lockouts at all? Why not just let people farm MC like SM.

Cad · 07-12-2005, 08:09 AM

This is a side-effect of them allowing you to substitute in other people into your raid.

We whined and bitched about raids getting split, and thats because the first version of the code was too hardcore and split out people who weren't on the original raid.

They changed it to like it is. Now you get cascading where people can jump on other people's instances... you don't get it both ways. Me, I prefer it the way it is. Try not to complain too loudly. Get the abusers banned or whatever, but getting them to change it back is not a good idea.

Mkopec1 · 07-12-2005, 08:17 AM

So essentially you could go to some lowbie guild not even capable of doing MC yet, have them create an instance, and have your guild clear it? By working out some deal with them?

This sounds like a definite exploit. I mean some uber guild could have 3-4 of these small guilds in their pocket, and doing their instances 4-5 nights a week.

Maybe paying them in some way, somehow making it worthwhile to give up their instances. I mean its no big deal for a small guild not even being capable to take down the first boss.

Tuco · 07-12-2005, 08:21 AM

This is more of an issue for the BWL instance than MC, because it's fresh, the equipment is new and presumably better, and the later bosses in BWL may require you to gear up at least your tanks or hopefully the core of your raid force. Utilizing this exploit to raid all currently killable mobs for a certain(the leading group of) guild will accelerate progress.

If the new bosses in BWL can be farmed easily for ++MC loot repeatedly via cascading, then it'd be best to make an example of the first guilds that try it, especially the well known ones. Rather than changing the raid code which is now functionally acceptable.

I really don't want Blizzard changing the raid code, not because I'm playing WoW, but for the sake of the people that are.

Keltan · 07-12-2005, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

So essentially you could go to some lowbie guild not even capable of doing MC yet, have them create an instance, and have your guild clear it? By working out some deal with them?

This sounds like a definite exploit. I mean some uber guild could have 3-4 of these small guilds in their pocket, and doing their instances 4-5 nights a week.

Maybe paying them in some way, somehow making it worthwhile to give up their instances. I mean its no big deal for a small guild not even being capable to take down the first boss.

Just for clarification, that "newbie guild" is still going to need to be able to clear to and kill Lucifron, since the raid instance won't save until at least one boss dies.

Wodin · 07-12-2005, 08:29 AM

Curiously enough, there's been no official word on this particular behavior. Every reasonable person I've talked to considers it an exploit, but nobody has been banned or suspended for it. I don't know whether they're simply giving guilds that use it rope to hang themselves with, don't care, can't audit it, or somewhere in between.

There used to be a more pernicious bug where you didn't have to buy/steal a saved instance - you could get a saved instance without ever killing anything. That one got hotfixed fast and resulted in some suspensions IIRC.

For those willing to deal with the official boards and a lot of immature people, here's the thread that details RaidID theft:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...h&T=109443&P=1

07-12-2005, 02:49 AM	#1 (permalink)
dumdee777 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 421 -1 Internets	cascading instances this has been a big issue lately, just curious what you guys think of it. btw if your not familiar with it, here's a post about it. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...mp=1#post52022

07-12-2005, 03:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
Grimmlokk Unlicensed Vaginoplasty Surgeon Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,325 +9 Internets	I love that people came up with a more fluffy and cuddly term for it so they don't feel like they're exploiting=) Resetting, rotating, exploiting, all sound so technical...I know...CASCADING! It's like a beautiful waterfall...of instance exploiting! Not saying that I don't/didn't do it mind you=) Just not for MC. Gogo Plugger! ALso I called it Precipitating the instance because it made me feel special. __________________ "The eyes are the groin of the face"

07-12-2005, 08:17 AM	#12 (permalink)
Mkopec1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 4,964	So essentially you could go to some lowbie guild not even capable of doing MC yet, have them create an instance, and have your guild clear it? By working out some deal with them? This sounds like a definite exploit. I mean some uber guild could have 3-4 of these small guilds in their pocket, and doing their instances 4-5 nights a week. Maybe paying them in some way, somehow making it worthwhile to give up their instances. I mean its no big deal for a small guild not even being capable to take down the first boss. __________________ When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.

07-12-2005, 08:29 AM	#15 (permalink)
Wodin Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,868 +2 Internets	Curiously enough, there's been no official word on this particular behavior. Every reasonable person I've talked to considers it an exploit, but nobody has been banned or suspended for it. I don't know whether they're simply giving guilds that use it rope to hang themselves with, don't care, can't audit it, or somewhere in between. There used to be a more pernicious bug where you didn't have to buy/steal a saved instance - you could get a saved instance without ever killing anything. That one got hotfixed fast and resulted in some suspensions IIRC. For those willing to deal with the official boards and a lot of immature people, here's the thread that details RaidID theft: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...h&T=109443&P=1 __________________ Wodin - Troll Rogue - Elitist Jerks - Mal'Ganis

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07-12-2005, 04:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
Rythonn Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,574	My question is how would they go about stopping this?

07-12-2005, 04:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
Thhin Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of the Lotus Eaters Posts: 707 +0 Internets	My favorite is the people who "steal" instances and Blizz does nothing To do it get somebody near the MC entrance (either in BRD or outside) with no /raidinfo and invite a single member of some guild that has a raid you want to steal (i'll let you figure out all the ways you can sucker one person into your group). Switch to raid, promote the peron your going to steal to leader ang jump into MC. Poof you're now saved and your guild can gank away. Now you can cascade without even haveing an alliance with a guild!

07-12-2005, 05:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
Chaid I'm your huckleberry. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hotlanta Posts: 587 -1 Internets	"Working as intended" works both ways.

07-12-2005, 06:47 AM	#9 (permalink)
kaid Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 150 +0 Internets	As long as the guild that could not clear the rest of MC knows and consents to letting the other guild to clear the rest of their instance I have no problems with this. Now if they were claim jumping and clearing the other guilds instance before they could go as far as they can go that would likely not be so much of an exploit as griefing. kaid

07-12-2005, 08:09 AM	#11 (permalink)
Cad Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,220	This is a side-effect of them allowing you to substitute in other people into your raid. We whined and bitched about raids getting split, and thats because the first version of the code was too hardcore and split out people who weren't on the original raid. They changed it to like it is. Now you get cascading where people can jump on other people's instances... you don't get it both ways. Me, I prefer it the way it is. Try not to complain too loudly. Get the abusers banned or whatever, but getting them to change it back is not a good idea.

07-12-2005, 08:21 AM	#13 (permalink)
Tuco Forum Janitor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,876 +12 Internets	This is more of an issue for the BWL instance than MC, because it's fresh, the equipment is new and presumably better, and the later bosses in BWL may require you to gear up at least your tanks or hopefully the core of your raid force. Utilizing this exploit to raid all currently killable mobs for a certain(the leading group of) guild will accelerate progress. If the new bosses in BWL can be farmed easily for ++MC loot repeatedly via cascading, then it'd be best to make an example of the first guilds that try it, especially the well known ones. Rather than changing the raid code which is now functionally acceptable. I really don't want Blizzard changing the raid code, not because I'm playing WoW, but for the sake of the people that are.