Vanguard - Brad posts about balancing the classes (HELLA LONG)

[Taggle]

Sorry, ran out of time and had to drive home. I would just also like to point out that Zhen's suggestion would be nearly identical if you simply made all mitigation the same, and varied only DPS.

Make a tank mitigate through AC, a healer mitigate through heals the exact same amount, etc, monks mitigate through evasion. Measure mitigation at set intervals 30 seconds, 1 minute, etc.

Make every class then have 2 DPS roles, Melee DPS, Magic DPS, Ranged DPS and Debuffer (dps style).

Both making dps a constant (Zhen's idea) or making mitigation a constant (above) accomplish the exact same thing. Easier to balance? Yes. More fun? There is nothing that would indicate it would be.

The keys to balancing MMOGs are more like:

1. Clearly divide classes into mitigators and damage dealers.
2. Hide the fact that you did #1 from the players in a fun and meaningful way.

Now one area of "balance" has been yet unexplored in a MMOG. Maybe Vanguard will do it, maybe it wont, but it is on the horizon...non combat balance.

Balance the classes as above, and then give them non combat distingushing features...to do the world around you. Maybe mages can get rid of protective glyphs, warriors can bash down doors stuck by rusty locks, pick locks, Unholy Seals, etc. Maybe only rangers can traverse difficult terrain.

The idea is that dps and the like matter so much because it is the only thing that people currently factor in a group. If you had a dungeon where the only way to get to a leet loot spot is by unlocking a door (Sebilis), well then the fact that a mage does .003% more damage over time is less important than getting there.

Sure a wizard doesnt do as much damage against MR mobs as a rogue does, but you need a wizard to dispell the darkness surrounding the room, so lets grab one.

Vanguard is taking it a different way. Maybe there is a "Dungeon" where entrance is guarded by a super tough dragon...only through Diplomacy can you gain access. So, why choose Johnny Rogue over Johnny Wizard...well Johnny Rogue has spent time getting diplomacy up.

Adding non combat roles and abilities is the next frontier to class balance, not tossing out the old DPS - Mitigation mechanic.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by Kether Am I

Let me state here that I have never worked for a gaming company and perhaps I am wrong but from the many current issues with released MMOGs as well as posturing posts by the developers of upcoming games there seems to be a distinct lack of one characteristic in the industry.

Science.

I think Kether has a good point. All too often players know more about the game then designers. I think this is because players, as a group, do what kether is sugguesting, and that is to examine every combination of race / class / build/ gear and find which ones are outside the bounds of normalcy, and then they pick those to play. Of course they do this over long periods of time, and not even consciously as a group. One person will do a certain combination, and another will have another combination, then they will compare to see which is more successful.

There is no reason why game companies can't do this. Actually there must be a reason since none of them have done it. They can access to all the players abilities and stats and the hard numbers, so they really needs to crunch those numbers, examine them in every possible situation, then run some comparisons to see which ones are way off kilter. The idea isn't that they are all equal, but that they should be close enough to each other, and not have super spikes that grossly favour, or disfavour, 1 combination or another.

At the moment game design seems to be more artistic trial and error, seeing if it works, and when it doesn't, as evidenced but a lot of people complaining, then fiddle arond and try something else and see if that works. It really needs to be more founded on math / science/ engineering principles.

[Affinity]

Just hope there isn't a frost shock in vanguard =)

[Dahlrek]

Originally Posted by Faille

At the moment game design seems to be more artistic trial and error, seeing if it works, and when it doesn't, as evidenced but a lot of people complaining, then fiddle arond and try something else and see if that works. It really needs to be more founded on math / science/ engineering principles.

Here's the scoop on the designers I work with: they don't really do math. That's not to say they're bad at math (though some are), but they're generally not overly concerned about it. Quite frankly I don't think they're hired on the basis of their math skills. Most of the time, I think that's ok. They've usually got someone like myself they poke for numbers when they think they need them. Sometimes they screw shit up (Moss-Covered Twig), but grunt design work is generally filling out spreadsheets 6 hours a day anyway, if the core mechanics are good and the content creation system is designed well you can idiot-proof it to a certain degree. That's a tools design problem, not so much a game design problem.

I feel the actual problem is when it comes time to actually create/modify the core mechanics. Doesn't happen all that frequently, to be honest (especially modification; NOTHING stirs up a storm on the boards like modifications to core mechanics). But when it does, that's when I think you need to throw away the designers, and let the engineers or engineer/designer hybrids do their thing. Unfortunately, every designer (and every engineer) has a monster ego, so the fact that their business cards say "Designer" and yours says "Programmer" or somesuch generally means they don't pay much attention to your input (or they may just discard it because they can't understand it). When that happens you end up with things like linearly increasing percentile values for damage mitigation, or other such horrible mechanics that make my brain bleed.

Luckily, where I work they're starting to take engineer input a bit more seriously, hopefully that trend is happening at other companies as well. We might actually start seeing a decline in gameplay mechanics that don't spiral horribly out of control as players poke at them. Or maybe not; engineers can make mistakes too. Time will tell, but MMO design is still a pretty new field; gotta give it a while to get things sorted out.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by Affinity

Just hope there isn't a frost shock in vanguard =)

More to the point, hope there isn't CH or /disc defensive.