Vanguard - Brad posts about balancing the classes (HELLA LONG)

[Murr]

Originally Posted by Zehn_Druidbane

The number 1 thing they can do to help balance is to remove the concept of 'dps classes.' Nothing fucks shit up worse then that. Nothing. I've said it before and I'll say it here. What made the ideal raid makeup in EQ? 2 warriors, 8 clerics, 4 bards, 2 enchanters, 2 shaman, 1 druid and 40 wizards.

hi rogues faggot

[Faille]

Rogues owned all in DPS.

[Ronne]

They still own all in dps

[Zehn - Vhex]

Fine, 1 wizard and 39 rogues. 8(

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Zanetsu

Most of Brad's "screw-ups" were what made EQ what it was.

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

This is very true. And this is why many of the Eq clones which spawned after EQ that tried to "fix" EQ's problems ended up sucking.

Amen! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[Sampo]

Originally Posted by Dandai

Who has the better PR strategy between EQ2 and WoW, and where will V:SoH stand?

SOE patches at least minor fixes twice a week or more and has had ten major patches since release last November [for not mathematically inclined, that's a patch a month plus an extra three mixed in there somewhere].

According to http://patchtimer.org/Patch.txt , Blizzard has patched WoW a total of 12 times since release in November - this includes minor fixes after major patches.

Will V:SoH be like EQ2 where the game is virtually a whole new experience from when it launched or will it be like WoW that addresses major problems and facilitates some of the outcries of its community once in a while?

I read the first two words of the above and these words appeared in 100 font, bold: "Hi, I'm a noob"

[Malvesti]

I still don't see any real substance. Just say "moderation in all things" and be done with it.

Instead it's "we're going to have class balancing, but not too much" or "we're going to try to appeal to a lot of people, but not too many" ...


How about something real, like: "We really think Rogues are cool and understand that healing isn't really a fun part of playing. So we're OK if 50% of our playerbase are rogues and 5% of our playerbase is healers." Something substantial.

[Sampo]

How about a nice cup of stfu

[Velk]

I am a little disturbed by the implication that that uniformity is the necessary end result of a stringent balancing process.

I would suggest rather than uniformity is simply the path of least resistance to producing balance.

I would think that starcraft is a rather strong argument for balance through diversity.

[Braen]

Originally Posted by Velk

I am a little disturbed by the implication that that uniformity is the necessary end result of a stringent balancing process.

I would suggest rather than uniformity is simply the path of least resistance to producing balance.

I would think that starcraft is a rather strong argument for balance through diversity.

I don't think you can compare balancing a RTS game with 3 distinct races to the balancing of a MMO with 16+ classes. Especially in a game that those classes aren't directly competing against one another (PvE) It is much easier to balance a smaller number of classes, just look at WoW. Remember they released list of 16 classes is tentative. They have said there are other classes they are considering but haven't released any information on.

The real issue is not balancing each individual class to another class. To me, the issue is to create defined roles in the game the classes can fill and still maintain their individuality. If you define the roles, as Vanguard has, as Offensive/Heavy Tank, Defensive Tank, Healer and Arcane, then you mast make the classes that belong in those roles able to fulfill the role and have enough differences to keep them separate.

For example we will take the Heavy/Offensive tree of Vanguard that includes Warriors, Paladins, Dread Knights and the Inquisitor. This sounds similar to what EQ2 attempted to do, but still hasn't got it quite right, although it is much better than when they first launched. In theory, you should be able to use any of those classes in the Heavy tank role. Each one should be able to handle that role that almost the same level. The differences are the flavor, skills, spell and abilities that make a Warrior different from a Paladin. The problem with balancing the classes within the role is sometimes the flavor can make a certain class better suited or favored. In EQ2 (at least back when I was playing) you wanted a Guardian or Zerker over a monk or paladin because their abilities made them more viable. Also, a players perception also had a lot to do with it.

This happened in EQ when people started, for a long period of time, wanting Shadow Knights and Paladins over Warriors. Their spells and abilities gave them better versatility over a warrior. The spells of an SK could hold aggro longer and faster than the taunt of a warrior and the healing of the Paladin could help out a group in a pinch. You wanted the knights in a exp group and really only required the warrior when raiding. I saw this issue in WoW as well (and this is not a shot at WoW at all) with Paladins being desired from level 1-59 then when raidind started at level 60 Warrior became the tank of choice.

With the 4 Roles you have a situation where, instead of having a "Holy Trinity" you will have four required classes/roles in a perfect world. You have to design your encounters, content and classes around the 4 role system. The perfect group in such a game should contain 1 of each role class plus whatever other class would make the group more efficient. When you can create a game where any class of a defined role can step in and be just a desired and contribute just as much but in a different way, then you have the game of balance.

[Dis]

I cannot remember if it was here or in another forum where I read that when EQ devs would design content and class balance there would be only three things to be considered:

1.) DPS - IE warriors, rogues, wizards, mages, rangers, druids, monk, paladin, shadowknight, necros


2.) Damage Mitigation - paladin, shadowknight, warriors, shamans (heals & slows), enchanters (slow), clerics, druids


3.) Wildcard: CC - this was the hardest since it was so specialized and but can totally change the way content is played (IE what was originally thought was hard content is quite easy with a decent enchanter) Most if not all solutions to get around this problem was just make mobs immune to mez (that is another entirely different gripe)> Also to a small degree root can be considered the poor mans CC.


In the case of Everquest if you look at strictly numbers (IE DPS & damage mitigation) the classes were pretty close to the same. Yeah one class could do better than the other, but each class could be swapped out for another without having to worry about not being able to do content. Most groups consisted of tank/healer/slower(not mandatory in all cases, but more efficient)/dps/dps/dps. The only overpowered class was obviously the cleric in EQ simply because of rez and complete heal (IMHO),

The things that seperated one class from the other is their special abilities that may or may not be related to combat. For example rogues ability to be the best corpse retrieval classes in raids and in most cases groups, necros ability to pump mana into someone other than themselves, mages ability to summon items that are somewhat useful to groups/raids, enchanters with their different buffs, shamans with their different buffs, warriors ability to shield other group members among other things, druids for movement speed/buffs/teleport/snare, rangers for buffs/movement speed/snare, paladins/SK for their hybrid abilties to tank and buff, monks for FD and so on. So each class had some flavor to it, each made it stand out on its own.

Then there is the design where players have more control over the design of there character as opposed to the cookie cutter molds that EQ uses. In the case of games like Asheron's Call, the players pick from a pool of skills with a limited number of training points that can be trained or for more training cost "specialized", but the idea is to give the players the freedom of choosing what they do best. This basically throws the standard pen and paper idea of class definition right out of the window. The problem you have there is still balancing the skills so not everyone tries to pick the l33t skill template of the month.

CoH and WoW use a hybrid of the above two, where they use a cookie cutter template, but give the player the ability to "Specialize" in certain areas which kind of seperate people from the same class from the others. Basically it creates a new class within the class, or that is the idea anyways.

Everquest 2 tried to use some type of graduate system for class balance, where you start out in a very generic class then when you hit a certain level you "graduate" to the next class definition which allows you to pick your archetype, and finally when you hit the next certain level you "specialize" in your archetype (which is generally determined by whether you went good or evil). The main reason this sucked (no other way to say it) is on the second graduation, each class spells from there on out while having a different name have essentially the same effect, duration, and/or heal/damage range. All of this coupled with the fact that the spells are recieved at the same level. To say the least while it is an idea that needs to be explored, and has merit, it was poorly executed by SoE all in the name of "balancing" classes. They went to extreme on trying to do it "Right" instead of designing classes to be "fun and cool" worry about the balance later.

I dont claim to know it all, but I just hope they make class unique in some way and worry about the balance issues later. Hoepfully not making one class uber to the extreme in the process.


-Dis

[Magnum PI]

Originally Posted by Creediki

You guys are half right....



... He did say something. He said they don't have any concrete plans to not fuck up. They're just winging it with good intentions.

So far my estimation of Vanguard is that Brad is very good at bullshit, drives a nice car, and once accidentally created a fun game.

That's exactly my feeling. This game is going to probably suck, he's getting his knob polished by some bitch pushing out his puppies and he's a happy man. He honestly doesn't give a fuck about the hardcores, I mean for anyone whose established in the industry why would they care about the minority? If V: SoH sucks donkey dicks and you attempt to shout him down at the next E3 you will be removed from the building and he will still receive great press cause he's trying to help keep the MMO industry afloat and they need everyone they can get. God the people on this board have I think unreachable expectations for his game. I think they will be disappointed no matter what comes out. Oh and any of you who test beta, it still won't release Live to your expectations and you whiney cunts will bitch. I'm betting this game will be marginally better than WoW, he will lie to the hards and play more to the casuals espcially if he's stupid enough to work with a big company near SOE"s size that only cares about the bottom line. This games gonna be ho hum.

[Esmo]

Originally Posted by Doc

That's exactly my feeling. This game is going to probably suck, he's getting his knob polished by some bitch pushing out his puppies and he's a happy man. He honestly doesn't give a fuck about the hardcores, I mean for anyone whose established in the industry why would they care about the minority? If V: SoH sucks donkey dicks and you attempt to shout him down at the next E3 you will be removed from the building and he will still receive great press cause he's trying to help keep the MMO industry afloat and they need everyone they can get. God the people on this board have I think unreachable expectations for his game. I think they will be disappointed no matter what comes out. Oh and any of you who test beta, it still won't release Live to your expectations and you whiney cunts will bitch. I'm betting this game will be marginally better than WoW, he will lie to the hards and play more to the casuals espcially if he's stupid enough to work with a big company near SOE"s size that only cares about the bottom line. This games gonna be ho hum.

I think you are way out of line. Brad is wealthy enough that he could retire right now and provide for himself and his family quite well. The reason he continues to work is his passion for gaming. Attacking him and his family on a personal level is simply unnecessary.

While I strongly disagree with some of his MMOG philosophy, Brad is still pouring his heart and soul into this game. If you have issues with mechanics, philosophy or other GAME oriented ideals then by all means state them and support your position. But don't attack the man on a personal level.

[Taggle]

Originally Posted by Doc

That's exactly my feeling. This game is going to probably suck, he's getting his knob polished by some bitch pushing out his puppies and he's a happy man. He honestly doesn't give a fuck about the hardcores, I mean for anyone whose established in the industry why would they care about the minority? If V: SoH sucks donkey dicks and you attempt to shout him down at the next E3 you will be removed from the building and he will still receive great press cause he's trying to help keep the MMO industry afloat and they need everyone they can get. God the people on this board have I think unreachable expectations for his game. I think they will be disappointed no matter what comes out. Oh and any of you who test beta, it still won't release Live to your expectations and you whiney cunts will bitch. I'm betting this game will be marginally better than WoW, he will lie to the hards and play more to the casuals espcially if he's stupid enough to work with a big company near SOE"s size that only cares about the bottom line. This games gonna be ho hum.

You are pathetic.

You know nothing about the guy, other than your retarded armchair design ideas. You have no experience about anything in the industry, and contribute nothing to the community, but that doesn't stop you from puking out insults to someone who has never been anything but polite and up front on these boards. Even if you think his product will suck, its no reason to go after a guy like that.

Seriously, find all posts by Aradune on this board and link to one thing that causes you to feel the need to insult a man and his family. You are some fucking narrow minded moron acting like you mean something. You don't.

Attack his Vision. Attack his design ideas. Attack his past accomplishments. You will still be retarded and wrong, but at least you wont be tasteless, retarded and wrong.

Loser. Ban his FoH account.

[Faille]

Definately out of line Doc. I sugguest you edit your post.