Vanguard - Brad posts about the Casual/Hardcore debate

[Fammaden]

Originally Posted by Neric

Whenever Brad writes something, it sounds pretty good and quite convincing. Writing long articles is only half the job though. I'd like to see him follow up where it really counts and that's the game after all. Encouraging high hopes is a dangerous approach if you can't keep promise in the end.

Yeah, but I don't know what else to expect of him at this point in time, emphasized in case Neric confuses my statement with what Brad could do given all possible futures in Ledo II's golden path. It seems most of the information that was going to be released pre beta has been released. Other than managing expectations and expounding on what little we already know without having any real experience playing the game, what kinds of discussions do you propose we engage in right now?

Overall, it is somewhat symptomatic of the VG forum in general at the moment. While waiting for more screenshots or a beta announcement there is not much to talk about other than rehashing the same old shit tired "casual/hardcore", "what play type are you", "what I want from gnomes", "why rangers are important to me", "this is how I want a game to be" and "my take on the possible way things in VG will work based on wild speculation about the meager trickle of alpha information at our disposal" threads over and over again. So /yawn. At least he is staying active in the community. We will have to wait and see how active he remains over beta and into release and how meaningful his responses are to player concerns. Until people are in beta though and able to post feedback on a beta forum, what the hell is there to "follow up" on or even discuss?

[Valkyn]

I think everyone on the vanguard forums is discussing crap like "why gnomes need to be ugly" or whatever is in hopes that the devs are still reading the boards and taking ques from what people want.

But I dont think people really know what they want. Before EQ i doubt many would have said they wanted to take 6-8 months to get max level, have very few good items and they be very difficult to get, and stiff death penalties.

[XezztRZ]

If I had to define what made me play EQ1 for 5 years, I would have to say the community, in the broad term.

Actually, I believe that for most people, the interacting with the other players, whether it was chatting in group, building guild relations or cursing at a bastard stealing their spawn, made it all worth it. Whether you are hardcore or casual makes no difference from that point of view, it's just a constructed term anyways.

I played on Rallos Zek from spring 99 until early 04. The things that I remember best, and what kept me going was the wars, the diplomacy between guilds, and building the common community. I realize that the PvP aspect may become a sidenote, but the rest was just as important elsewhere, the competition between guilds on content is just one of many examples. Everyone and their mother followed the development and progress of the major guilds serverwide, whether you just played casually or all the time.

Community, the first and most important key word, locally as well as for the game at large. And may I add, having localized servers like they do in WoW is such a huge, huge no no. Not to mention instances, if you feel you have to have some of them, keep it as limited as humanly possible, they are a community killer if used 'correctly'. And another thing, am I the only one that thought BoTB for example, was a brilliant idea?

Heh, maybe this whole post was a digression. Oh well, take it as you see it..



--Xezzt

[Mkopec1]

I think its clear, with countless posts on this subject, that Brad & Company are sticking to their guns with their vision and how their game will play out.

Its funny how this casual vs hardcore issue is brought up in every game nowdays. In wow you hear how its not hardcore enough, in EQ you heard how it was catered for only the hardcore....etc.

But yet both of those games share, to this day, both hardcore and casual people coexisting and playing the same game.

I do believe though, that its not really an issue with hardcore or casual, its the issue of the grind. I dont believe that games in the future will really be competative in the market if they have huge grinds, much downtime, and or stict forced grouping, where in order to advance in any meaningful way you need to find a group. We dealt with that shit in EQ because it was our first, but I dont think that type of gameplay is really competative in todays market. You basically DO have to cater to both the groupers and the soloists these days. Just look at EQ2 and how drastically they changed the scope of the game by adding in more and more solo content.

While I do believe that Brad is right about the core gamer being a group oriented player, I do believe that even the core gamer needs breaks from groups and wants to solo, explore on his own..etc. Brad did say that his game does cater to solo, group and raid mindsets, but to what extent? What does brad consider meaningful soloing?

Another issue is how much time will it take to do anything meaningful? I believe that games need to be designed around the 1-3 hour mark for chunks of gameplay. WoW does this nice, Basically you can log in and do meaningful tasks, either in a dungeon or by yourself in a 1-3 hour timeframe and have meaningful advancement by the way of some items, exp, maybe a level or two... Gone are the days of old EQ where sometimes you stood waiting for a group your allowed session for that day. Do you think an experienced mmorpger will put up with that type of gameplay? How bout the noobie? I believe not.

While I do agree with Brad that the casual vs hardcore is sort of a unmeaningful topic, because how do you define the two? I really dont think you can. What might be casual for some can be on the verge of being hardcore for others. But its still an issue to be discussed, becausee this is the games core, its heart in a way. and it basically tells a person wether the game will be for him or not, gameplay issues aside.

[Surlok TP]

Originally Posted by XezztRZ

If I had to define what made me play EQ1 for 5 years, I would have to say the community, in the broad term.

Actually, I believe that for most people, the interacting with the other players, whether it was chatting in group, building guild relations or cursing at a bastard stealing their spawn, made it all worth it. Whether you are hardcore or casual makes no difference from that point of view, it's just a constructed term anyways.

I played on Rallos Zek from spring 99 until early 04. The things that I remember best, and what kept me going was the wars, the diplomacy between guilds, and building the common community. I realize that the PvP aspect may become a sidenote, but the rest was just as important elsewhere, the competition between guilds on content is just one of many examples. Everyone and their mother followed the development and progress of the major guilds serverwide, whether you just played casually or all the time.

Community, the first and most important key word, locally as well as for the game at large. And may I add, having localized servers like they do in WoW is such a huge, huge no no. Not to mention instances, if you feel you have to have some of them, keep it as limited as humanly possible, they are a community killer if used 'correctly'. And another thing, am I the only one that thought BoTB for example, was a brilliant idea?

Heh, maybe this whole post was a digression. Oh well, take it as you see it..



--Xezzt

Pretty much every EQ server had an individual,and very active Server board,some more than one.Many of those still exist long after the majoirty of the posters have moved on elsewhere.In addition you had things like Lucy,and ala and EQTradeskills and various other very popular communites as well as a Class site for almost all the classes that were equally popular amongst the players of each.You could literally spend 3 hours a day doing nothing but visiting Eq Communites that all revolved around one or another aspects of the game.The server wide channels,while being a haven for strat sharing and other scum and villany,were also very cool in that alot of the people you chatted with on MB's you could then chat with in game.I know I was in like 4-5 of these near the end of my time,a couple that had 100+ users usually in them.

Despite EQ's pretty large playerbase for the time,it seemed liek such a small world,like a very tight community where you knew or were familiar with,so many people.Alot of the famous faces in wow are such because they were established in EQ.WoW has few server boards enjoying the kind of traffic EQ's did,and so to with WoW's community sites,again many of which that are popular,are so because they were pre-established during EQ's reign.Alot of this is also because newerr games are offering message boards,sans moderation for the most part which is something EQ did originally,then dropped and hassince gone back to afaik.This kind of things while certainly helpful,diminishes the need for community developed ...communities.

WoW is too big I think for these communities,plus the Hoard Vs Alliance Bullshit diminshes the community extensively.

[Camerous]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

Gone are the days of old EQ where sometimes you stood waiting for a group your allowed session for that day. Do you think an experienced mmorpger will put up with that type of gameplay? How bout the noobie? I believe not.

I hope, and think, you are wrong. I never had a problem finding a group in EQ. The ONLY time I EVER had a problem is when I went back here a month or so ago and that was because all the noobs were playing that FPS, er I mean that MMO WoW.

I want a grind. I want to know it is going to take me more than 2 months to get max lvl. I want a game that all the whiney ass people who curse EQ1 don't play. Please GOD give me a game where I don't have to be on the same lvl as every other retard with a mouse.

It is so funny to read what some of you write.

"No one wants a grind any more!"
"No one wants 6 and 7 hour raids any more!"
"No one wants blah blah blah cry cry cry whine whine whine"

Well all I have to say to that is stay in WoW you little bishes. Some of us actually want to challenge ourselves...not have everyone in the whole damn game be equal. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO EVERYTHING IN THE GAME JUST CAUSE YOU PAY FOR IT!! You have the RIGHT to EARN it you little crybabies.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by XezztRZ

If I had to define what made me play EQ1 for 5 years, I would have to say the community, in the broad term.

Actually, I believe that for most people, the interacting with the other players, whether it was chatting in group, building guild relations or cursing at a bastard stealing their spawn, made it all worth it. Whether you are hardcore or casual makes no difference from that point of view, it's just a constructed term anyways.

I played on Rallos Zek from spring 99 until early 04. The things that I remember best, and what kept me going was the wars, the diplomacy between guilds, and building the common community. I realize that the PvP aspect may become a sidenote, but the rest was just as important elsewhere, the competition between guilds on content is just one of many examples. Everyone and their mother followed the development and progress of the major guilds serverwide, whether you just played casually or all the time.

Community, the first and most important key word, locally as well as for the game at large. And may I add, having localized servers like they do in WoW is such a huge, huge no no. Not to mention instances, if you feel you have to have some of them, keep it as limited as humanly possible, they are a community killer if used 'correctly'. And another thing, am I the only one that thought BoTB for example, was a brilliant idea?

Heh, maybe this whole post was a digression. Oh well, take it as you see it..



--Xezzt

Maybe I am wrong, but I dont think such issues as instancing and the lack of competition are the reasons Wow does not have coomunity. Imagine a game like WoW without instancing. You would have 100 people enjoying the content and the other 2000 pissed off because those guilds are cockblocking the content. Is this the community building you wanna see?

Many have mentioned this fact before, the first generation games bred a ill attitude twords those which are not part of your little clique, or guild. Like "Im not grouping with anyone aside my guild groups" and like many have brouht up on these forums, how many of you took your guild from EQ or whereever and placed it inside of WoW and took an eletist attitude twods others which were not a part of your guild?

I think the issue of no community is bot gameplay and player issue. Sure it does not help that WoW is basically a sol game from 1-60, and with the added instancing, the AH and other mechanics which isoplates the group or person, but its the fault of the players too. With their established guilds, core of friends and little cliques not allowing anyone else to enter, and heaven forbid grouping with pick up groups, the horror!

[Creediki]

What else could we expect from him at this time? He is the CEO or something right? Here are questions Microsoft should be asking him... if Sigil was public, these are questions I'd be asking as a stock analyst

He speaks about adequate funding.. How is his funding model different from others, and how will he be funding the live team / expansions? How does this differ from other companies?

What are his contingency plans for half the development team leaving? Does he have one?

What are his significant milestones in development? What core features are planned to be in Vanguard, and what is impact of missing those deadlines? (Since some will be missed)



The only thing he says in this entire interview is that they don't expect to be as big as WoW and they are.. oddly enough.. upbeat about that. Oh and.. being not as big is actually an advantage. They can focus.. somehow.. and sutff. This was a copy-paste from some briefing Brad gave to senior mgmt at MS or whoever is writing their checks.

[Camerous]

Originally Posted by Creediki

The only thing he says in this entire interview is that they don't expect to be as big as WoW and they are.. oddly enough.. upbeat about that.

The reason they are upbeat about it is hopefully Vanguard won't have the amount of retards, crybabies, and morons WoW does. If by being smaller they can cut out a huge % of those type of people listed above it will be a GREAT GAME indeed.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Camerous

I hope, and think, you are wrong. I never had a problem finding a group in EQ. The ONLY time I EVER had a problem is when I went back here a month or so ago and that was because all the noobs were playing that FPS, er I mean that MMO WoW.

I want a grind. I want to know it is going to take me more than 2 months to get max lvl. I want a game that all the whiney ass people who curse EQ1 don't play. Please GOD give me a game where I don't have to be on the same lvl as every other retard with a mouse.

It is so funny to read what some of you write.

"No one wants a grind any more!"
"No one wants 6 and 7 hour raids any more!"
"No one wants blah blah blah cry cry cry whine whine whine"

Well all I have to say to that is stay in WoW you little bishes. Some of us actually want to challenge ourselves...not have everyone in the whole damn game be equal.

I agree, I want a challenge too! but not at the expense of mindless 5-6 hour long grinds, killing the same shit over and over again. Or waiting for 1-3 hours to find a group because you cant do jack shit alone in the mean time.

So is this what dificulty in a game and how awesome of a player equates to? How long you can grind shit for? How you have 10 hours a day to play? Is this what a good player is? Is this how you define a retard? someone who enjoys some RL too and cannot play for 5-6 hours per day?

Fuck that, there has to be more to difficutly and depth than in time investments, mind numbing grinds, and LFG.

[Creediki]

Originally Posted by Camerous

The reason they are upbeat about it is hopefully Vanguard won't have the amount of retards, crybabies, and morons WoW does. If by being smaller they can cut out a huge % of those type of people listed above it will be a GREAT GAME indeed.

You're divorced from reality.

[Chaid]

WoW can't hope to have a community like EQ1 until it's got enough content to have people playing 4-5 days a week. When people login and don't see their friends playing, they are less likely to stay logged in. Definitely a chicken and egg dilemma, and one not solvable by the playerbase.

So unless Vanguard (or any other game) ships with enough content to keep people playing 4-5 days a week for many months after launch, it's going to have similar "lack of community" problems.

[Camerous]

I am hoping we won't have to kill the same shit over and over again. I am hoping there will be enough to do/kill in Vanguard that you will be too busy roaming around killin stuff for it to seem like a grind. But on the same note I don't mind sitting in one place maxing my exp earning potential. And that is the definition of a hardcore player to me. Not how long you can play but how well you take advantage of the time you DO play. I knew some people who were logged on EQ 15 - 16 hours a day and they were about as far away from hardcore as you could get. They would walk around chatting and doing trade skills or killing stuff to help lower members and things like that. And hey if that's your idea of a good time go for it. But whine to me that you can't see then end bosses cause you have been giving noob_1002 pwr lvling sessions cause he asked so nicely. Or don't complain to me cause you can't get that piece of uber loot cause you are too busy playing Maratha Stewart in an online game.

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Creediki

You're divorced from reality.

Yeah, because EQ never had retards which were Lv70 with 400AA

[Camerous]

Originally Posted by Creediki

You're divorced from reality.

Sure I am little one. You just keep on playing your little kiddy MMO and leave the real gaming to the rest of us. Shoo now...Time for your cookies and milk.

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

Yeah, because EQ never had retards which were Lv70 with 400AA

If you think there were as many retards with max lvl and lots of AAs as there are lvl 60 retards in WoW...well that's just sad. Perhaps you need to get your head out of Blizzard's ass and see the real picture.