Round two of "Awesome" warrior changes incoming

[ex-genj]

Originally Posted by beepbeepbeep

If slam is fine, then improved slam makes a fine skill even better by making the cooldown 33 % lower.

The problem is that slam itself sucks. With a full rage bar, the improved slam talent (1 sec cooldown), impale, and RECKLESSNESS I barely broke 250 dps using a DFR, jamming slam the entire time.

nah because of latency and global cooldown the .5 second less casting time is almost not noticeable and certainly doesn't decrease chain-casting by 33%. And the talent is 5 points and deep in the fury tree where you badly need points for enrage and flurry etc.

Chaining slam when you have a lot of rage is much better DPS than just auto attack and MS. Of course you need to be stationary and at least 60 rage to get the benefit from it. So in other words current slam is fine for arms warriors, but both current and talent-improved slam sucks for fury wars because of the way they work. So really if they just significantly buffed the talent I think it'd be fine.

[beepbeepbeep]

Originally Posted by chu

I generally agree with most of the things you say but I think you're somewhat wrong here. Slam is very good even without the talent. With windfury, strenght totem and the obsidian blade I can easily average 300dps. The slams can crit for 900.

Around 1 month ago, I respecced specifically to test the viability of slam with the talent. I was greatly dissapointed. The 250 DPS was what was displayed. Bear in mind this was without any totems, and I'm sure the totems are composing the bulk of your 300 dps, I know they always push near that with just MS.

[forge]

So lets reflect, they changed all the warrior armor to be better for the pve environment. This change was clearly pointing towards protection spec warriors. Now they remove the one of three useful skills in the protection tree for pve, shield disc. Where are they going with this nonsense?

[beepbeepbeep]

Originally Posted by ex-genj

nah because of latency and global cooldown the .5 second less casting time is almost not noticeable and certainly doesn't decrease chain-casting by 33%. And the talent is 5 points and deep in the fury tree where you badly need points for enrage and flurry etc.

Chaining slam when you have a lot of rage is much better DPS than just auto attack and MS. Of course you need to be stationary and at least 60 rage to get the benefit from it. So in other words current slam is fine for arms warriors, but both current and talent-improved slam sucks for fury wars because of the way they work. So really if they just significantly buffed the talent I think it'd be fine.

I think a better design might be something like reducing the cast time back to 1 (pre-nerf), and then making the talent "20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100% chance to avoid casting delays from damage".

I think that would give it combat viability (through the talent) and decent at a base 1 second cast time for non-fury warriors.


This may be a horde point of view but with windfury and strength totems my DPS while spamming MS is far better than slamming. The only thing I find it remotely useful for is when a mob has ~200ish hp left, right after your last swing with a big slow weapon to get in a fast 1.5 second hit to finish it off.

[frott]

Warriors are probably close to the last, if not the last, of the classes that need any changes.

[Araxen]

Dumping Shield Disc just shows Bliizzard has no clue on what to do with the Protection Tree. Seriously, Shield Disc was pretty awesome if you have the Drillborer Disc + Might 3 peice set bonus. 160 partial blocks anyone? After this change there is no point in speccing more than 17 points in Protection. Put the rest in Arms or Fury. You'll get more mileage out of your points.

[ex-genj]

Originally Posted by frott

Warriors are probably close to the last, if not the last, of the classes that need any changes.

This is just ignorant. Currently there is one incredibly dominant build for both pve and pvp and deviating from it even slightly gimps your character significantly. No other class is like this. Warriors need a massive overhaul of both protection and fury trees but this isnt it.

[frott]

Originally Posted by ex-genj

This is just ignorant. Currently there is one incredibly dominant build for both pve and pvp and deviating from it even slightly gimps your character significantly. No other class is like this. Warriors need a massive overhaul of both protection and fury trees but this isnt it.

No other class has completely useless trees, confusing additions to trees that muddies their class (hi, dps on holy tree), awkward raid roles or limited viability based on the lack of overlapping skillset (hi there, feral druid!)? No other classes have to make arbitrary decisions based on factors they can't possibly know about only to basically be forced to respec to the proper tree later?

Gee, yeah, I can think of no other classes who if specced "uniquely" lose both pve and pvp viability

[beepbeepbeep]

Originally Posted by frott

No other class has completely useless trees, confusing additions to trees that muddies their class (hi, dps on holy tree), awkward raid roles or limited viability based on the lack of overlapping skillset (hi there, feral druid!)? No other classes have to make arbitrary decisions based on factors they can't possibly know about only to basically be forced to respec to the proper tree later?

Gee, yeah, I can think of no other classes who if specced "uniquely" lose both pve and pvp viability

Saying that there are other classes with problems is a far cry from saying that warriors are "the last class that needs changes".

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by ex-genj

This is just ignorant. Currently there is one incredibly dominant build for both pve and pvp and deviating from it even slightly gimps your character significantly. No other class is like this. Warriors need a massive overhaul of both protection and fury trees but this isnt it.

Must be nice to have one incredibly dominant build.

Priests have none.

Warriors may not be the last class that needs changes, but they should be pretty near the bottom. They've gotten a TON of buffs since release.

[ex-genj]

I'm not saying warriors need buffs in general, just their 2 useless talent trees do. Again no other class has it as "bad" as us - we have ONE build that everyone takes because its the only one that doesn't suck. I'm aware that several other classes have some weak talents and weak trees. Nothing as bad as warriors.

I just took a look at my guild roster.

We have 4 holy/disc priests, not sure which ones have 31 holy. We have one 31 disc priest. We have 5 shadow priests.

We have 8 active raiding warriors. All of which have 31 arms and 20 fury.

[Hozz]

These changes look...underwhelming.

Whoever is behind them has no idea who is interested in Protection. Hint: Its not the PvP enthusiast. Protection is the weakest tree now. The 1.6 notes dont change that.

H

[frott]

Originally Posted by beepbeepbeep

Saying that there are other classes with problems is a far cry from saying that warriors are "the last class that needs changes".

No, saying that other classes have problems is the counter to saying "Currently there is one incredibly dominant build for both pve and pvp and deviating from it even slightly gimps your character significantly. No other class is like this."

Warriors are not the only class with one dominant build and I'm not seeing why their particular problems are worthy of a total rebuild when they can perform both tanking and DPS roles just fine *nearly* regardless of build, with distinct benefits going if you're a tanking warrior or a dps warrior and specced accordingly.

So, saying there's one dominant build really just sounds like every other classes issue: there's one best build for doing the role you're usually going to do, and very little variance in how you do that. So, fine, go ahead and put points into cat scratch 2.0 as a feral druid or some intricate, situational and probably broken ability as a warlock (last I checked that was most of them) or a holy spell that spits fire on your enemies (?)

Every class could have the situation where they take all of the good abilities and put them in one tree, unfortunately this isn't even the groundfloor for most classes... the amount of "thumb up ass" across the boards for other classes at raid time is just sad, so you generally find people speccing to reduce that time as much as possible, and those specs to be the "1 dominant spec."

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by ex-genj

I'm not saying warriors need buffs in general, just their 2 useless talent trees do. Again no other class has it as "bad" as us - we have ONE build that everyone takes because its the only one that doesn't suck. I'm aware that several other classes have some weak talents and weak trees. Nothing as bad as warriors.

I just took a look at my guild roster.

We have 4 holy/disc priests, not sure which ones have 31 holy. We have one 31 disc priest. We have 5 shadow priests.

We have 8 active raiding warriors. All of which have 31 arms and 20 fury.

You're reading too much into priests with varying specs.

This doesn't mean that different trees are viable; it means that for the most part, spec is almost completely irrelevant to the core functions of a priest. Healing ability gets almost no improvement through Holy tree, so it's not necessary to spec much in it; Disc is more about mana conservation and regeneration so it benefits pretty much anything you cast; and Shadow is DPS so it's fun for PvP.

But for healing, the core function of a priest, you wouldn't see a ton of difference if you had no talent points spent at all.

[Shinrai]

Incredibly lame change. As a protection spec warrior I was cool with being handicapped in PvP in exchange for the tiny amount of extra aggro and mitigation shield discipline gave me. With the new change I'd still be gimped in PvP (compared to the 30/21/0 build which is ridiculously superior) but my ultimate talent would only have value in PvP. What are they thinking?