Should Physical Effects be removable?

[nadime]

It's bugged me for awhile that nearly every form of cc -- frost snares, polymorph, freezing trap, seduction, warlock fear, crippling poison -- is removeable, but the group called "physical effects" is not. I don't have a problem with the general idea that there are certain unremovable very short term effects, though I think this is a very debatable point, my issue is mainly that I think several unremoveable effects are overpowered in PVP, namely sap, mortal strike, and hamstring.

I don't want to get into a huge debate here, but in my view mortal strike is an unfortunately unbalanced ability in small group PVP because it renders healing half as useful, in many cases thereby making it useless in general. An example: if the assist train follows the warrior, only one target is really getting damaged anyway, so if that target has mortal strike on it, healing is fairly pointless, assuming mortal striked HPS can't keep up with the DPS on the target. Now, one could argue that with an assist train on a target no HPS is going to keep up with DPS anyway, but I can tell you with a good deal of experience that this isn't always the case, whereas it is the case that a priest chaining flash heal on a mortal striked target can't keep up with a single warrior hacking with an arcanite reaper at a cloth class.

In addition to my feelings about mortal strike, I also just in general think all CC should be removable or all CC should be unremovable. I'm aware that sap is less effective than polymorph, but it still seems to me broken to have one be removable when the other isn't.

Thoughts?

[Ahnkosis]

You leave Mortal Strike the hell alone and we'll get along just fine.

I think that having some effects unable to be removed makes them more balanced. A Mage can do many more things in a shorter amount of time than a Warrior can, but the warriors effects are more detrimental, because they are unable to be removed.

[Elgonn]

Sure let them be removed with a channeled odd firstaid bandage. As long as you aren't instant casting the removal in combat there isn't much of an issue.

[nadime]

Originally posted by Ahnkosis
You leave Mortal Strike the hell alone and we'll get along just fine.

I think that having some effects unable to be removed makes them more balanced. A Mage can do many more things in a shorter amount of time than a Warrior can, but the warriors effects are more detrimental, because they are unable to be removed.

How is a mage able to "do many things in a shorter amount of time"?

[findar]

he probly meant warlock.

[Malse]

Originally posted by nadime
I don't want to get into a huge debate here, but in my view mortal strike is an unfortunately unbalanced ability in small group PVP because it renders healing half as useful[/b]

With this specifically, that's very intentional. Healing in WoW is roughly twice as time efficient as damage, meaning in general a single priest can defeat the upfront omgzmustinstapwn attempts on someone else in his party. This creates a need for slightly more strategy than "everyone shoot the same guy" in even moderately sized (about 20 people per faction) engagements.

The specific counter for this was Mortal Strike, giving warriors a reason to be in melee and giving you a reason to kill them. Massive idiot gang-bang attacks aside, PVP in WoW is won by healing.

I wouldn't be necessarily opposed to some sort of "Cure" spell that healed physical ailments like your tendon's being hewn (although that healing by itself in 15 seconds anyway is sort of dumb). What would be more "realistic" would be for physical effects like Mortal Strike and Hamstring to instead have their own HP count, and absorb x% of the incoming heals on the victim before being "mended." Thus, Mortal Strike might be a 2000 HP-pool strike with no duration, eating 50% of all healing up to 2000 total, Hamstring might be a 100 HP at 10%, etc.

The way they are now is balanced for warriors being unable to remove any of the magical effects put on them by everyone else.

[beepbeepbeep]

No, they should not be removable. They require melee range and rage, a finite resource for a warrior, not a huge pool that he can cast from at the start of a fight.

Also as stated above, casters can remove effects, warriors can not. So a caster can remove a caster effect and cast it. A warrior is unable to remove his effects just like everyone else. If you have casters able to remove magical and physical effects, where does that leave warriors? Unless you want to make warriors able to remove physical effects.

[Jait]

Doing this would create more role-playing (and not the kind you think I mean). I'd hate to be the person running around curing physical effects rather than.... you know, actually killing people.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Distance means nothing after the initial charge. The advantage of range only does two things

1) Hunter gets off a scatter shot and before the priests know wtf is going on the rogue legion ambushes and eviscerates them all to death.

and

2) A few insta-casts are thrown around, on both sides. It's not like it's 10 warriors vs. 10 mages.

Once ranks are closed, it's people jumping around in circles around eachother doing whatever type of damage they can.

Anyways...

Priests should get as a rank 5 ability in the discipline tree "Combat Medic" or something which cures any one effect (physical or otherwise) on you and makes you immune to status effects for 5 seconds, castable once every 20. Ranks 2 and 3 increase the immunity to10 and 15 or reduce the recast to 15 and 10 seconds. Or both. Fuck paladins and shaman.

Druids should have something similar. Perhaps a group version that's more mana intensive and with no immunity.

[Metranon]

mortal strike is a little overpowered, sure. It has been since beta.

The problem is, this ability is also the crux of any successful PvP warrior. Meaning that, to change it even slightly would mean a change in the overall PvP strength of the warrior. Fury and protection specs are REALLY not viable at this point, thus, mortal strike must remain in the state it is or warriors will clearly fall behind in PvP balance.

as a warrior, i'm sick to death of using MS, I've been using it since open beta when i started playing the class.

[Qhue]

The problem is that the designers are mired in their own worldviews.

If you suggest that hamstring be "dispelled" then they come back with things like "dude wtfzors?! I just CUT your $@!#$ hamstring muscle you aint goin nowhere biatch!". However instantly curing poison that is racking through your veins or having a solid block of ice that roots you in place and numbs all the muscles in your legs vanish in an arcane flash is acceptable.

[Malse]

Distance means nothing after the initial charge.

You have obviously never played a melee. If someone gets out of range without a snare, or with you equally snared, you don't get a chance to snare them again. Thanks to lag I quite often have people run directly away from me and manage to get the one step ahead necessary to prevent me from attacking, meaning I have to wait for Intercept to even get a chance at attacking.

I'm sure hunters feel the same way about their range minimums. Distance-limited abilities very much mean something.

[Ravvenn]

Originally posted by nadime
It's bugged me for awhile that nearly every form of cc -- frost snares, polymorph, freezing trap, seduction, warlock fear, crippling poison -- is removeable, but the group called "physical effects" is not. I don't have a problem with the general idea that there are certain unremovable very short term effects, though I think this is a very debatable point, my issue is mainly that I think several unremoveable effects are overpowered in PVP, namely sap, mortal strike, and hamstring.

I don't want to get into a huge debate here, but in my view mortal strike is an unfortunately unbalanced ability in small group PVP because it renders healing half as useful, in many cases thereby making it useless in general. An example: if the assist train follows the warrior, only one target is really getting damaged anyway, so if that target has mortal strike on it, healing is fairly pointless, assuming mortal striked HPS can't keep up with the DPS on the target. Now, one could argue that with an assist train on a target no HPS is going to keep up with DPS anyway, but I can tell you with a good deal of experience that this isn't always the case, whereas it is the case that a priest chaining flash heal on a mortal striked target can't keep up with a single warrior hacking with an arcanite reaper at a cloth class.

In addition to my feelings about mortal strike, I also just in general think all CC should be removable or all CC should be unremovable. I'm aware that sap is less effective than polymorph, but it still seems to me broken to have one be removable when the other isn't.

Thoughts?

Good to see you're still around.

[Quineloe]

Originally posted by Metranon
mortal strike is a little overpowered, sure. It has been since beta.

The problem is, this ability is also the crux of any successful PvP warrior. Meaning that, to change it even slightly would mean a change in the overall PvP strength of the warrior. Fury and protection specs are REALLY not viable at this point, thus, mortal strike must remain in the state it is or warriors will clearly fall behind in PvP balance.

as a warrior, i'm sick to death of using MS, I've been using it since open beta when i started playing the class.

I'd not consider it a "little overpowered" with the bogus way of MS damage being calculated right now.

if the weighted axe was in game, it would be by far the best warrior weapon. This is so wrong. Fix this issue, no need to nerf MS.

[Kaige]

I don't have Mortal Strike and there's times I wish I did. Its so ridiculous in pvp that the effort I can put into hammering someone on the field can be erased by some healer that passes by.

This is especially true for the healing classes themselves, who can survive a lot of punishment without some form of counter.

Paladins and druids are especially annoying in that area.