Brad's take on DDO's pics/movies vs Vanguard's

[Noah EQ2]

Aradune Mithara

We run into this also with screenshots. One can approach making a screenshot from a purely artistic (or even photographic) stand point, making sure the composition is good, the eye is led the right way, and that all is right in the scene. And that's fine. But one can also try to capture the action of the game, the essence of the game, from a gamer's perspective. That type of screenshot may not win a medal from an artistic or photographic standpoint, but if it provides a glimpse into what the game feels like, how it plays, etc. I think it's equally or more valuable to the gamer as the former.

There was a thread here and also on the FoH boards where people were debating the merits of our screenshots vs. D&D Online. Some of the comments in favor of the D&D shots was that they were more action packed, full of gameplay, and that people could get a better feeling from them, whereas some of the Vanguard shots, while beautiful and composed and obviously using higher-end tech, etc., were also a bit dry and lifeless.

Let me know if I'm nuts here or not, but it's something I've been feeling for a while, and is also based on feedback I've been reading. I think we need a mixture of approaches, and that we've neglected movies and screenshots to some degree that may not be artistic masterpieces but at the same time DO show off the gameplay and what makes Vanguard Vanguard a bit better.

The counter argument, of course, is that the marketplace is much more competitive now, and more sophisticated, and there are more MMOGs out there, and a lot more money being spent on them, so the need for a lot of effort and polish and a 'professional' touch in terms of media, advertisements, etc. that promotes the game is now necessary (or, say, more necssary than back in EQ 1's day).



Personally I think Vanguard needs to step up and release some movie footage of the gameplay. Both games seem great but in the spirit of competition, DDO is giving out more information to potential players to captivate the audiance and get a large following pre-beta/release. Could they just be in different "stages" of progress with the game atm? Possibly, but Vanguard has been in developement for a LONG while (around the same time as DDO). Im thinking Brad needs to cough up some video (pre E3!!).

[FuckYou]

and that we've neglected movies and screenshots to some degree that may not be artistic masterpieces but at the same time DO show off the gameplay and what makes Vanguard Vanguard a bit better.

Perhaps someone could link to the shots he's referring to. Most of the ones I remember (and the ones that have been the mostly hotly debated here) have been shots with little or no UI and a single character model in them. I remember a couple with bats and/or bugs in them, but I dont recall any group-vs-mob shots with multiple mobs/chars/spell effects.

[Angry Amadeus]

Originally posted by FuckYou
Perhaps someone could link to the shots he's referring to. Most of the ones I remember (and the ones that have been the mostly hotly debated here) have been shots with little or no UI and a single character model in them. I remember a couple with bats and/or bugs in them, but I dont recall any group-vs-mob shots with multiple mobs/chars/spell effects.

Yes. Agreed.

DDO is pumping out screenshots and trailers like a hot sow. I've seen six new pics of Vanguard in the past year.

Yet, Vanguard still tickles my pickle.

[Elgonn]

I don't have much hope for DDO. I do have hope for Vanguard. Even so. Screenshot and video wise Vanguard sucks at the moment. I can't imagine how Brad can claim otherwise.

[Noah EQ2]

FYou - try the download on my File Planet post. True there is limited footage of the UI, etc but the video atleast shows somewhat game play will look like (vs stills of combat).

True, V:SoH has only released a small bit of material and I think highly of the game/concept/art... but after a while blue balls really start to hurt and you need to "get some satisfaction".

[Jait]

Originally posted by Noah EQ2
[i]Aradune Mithara


There was a thread here and also on the FoH boards where people were debating the merits of our screenshots vs. D&D Online. Some of the comments in favor of the D&D shots was that they were more action packed, full of gameplay, and that people could get a better feeling from them, whereas some of the Vanguard shots, while beautiful and composed and obviously using higher-end tech, etc., were also a bit dry and lifeless.

That actually made me laugh a bit. "Debate" is an awfully PC term to use for what goes on here sometimes. =)

As for the development of games, I'm drawing more and more allegory from sports as I see these new releases.


For example. Ryan Leaf vs Peyton Manning. All football fans of recent years remember this:

Everyone looked at the surface attributes ("Screenshots") of these two and swore up and down that Leaf was the superior athelete, the superior arm, the superior mind etc.... Sure enough he was drafted first, as expected over Manning, and ended up as one of the biggest bombs in history. So what's the point of this?

Pedigree counts for a lot. More than people realize, and that's what Brad has in spades. He has already proven his success with EQ, and coupled with his vast knowledge of why games suck, and why game succeed, I have faith in the development. I wouldn't worry too much about the minor whines over the 9 shades of Brown in the screens. It's just the playerbase looking for something to bitch about. Screenshots count for a lot of course, that's why tons of lambs flocked over to CoH at release despite it not having more than a months worth of content. Great screens, great glitter and flash, but zero BANG. Yet due to it's screens more than anything else, many people played it.

Guild Wars, which actually may be one of the best RPG adaptations out currently, despite it's success (which you'll all be reading about everywhere shortly) these boards tend to trash it,despite it's roots being firmly grounded in the "old school". Why? Screenshots. Hey that looks like a Diablo2 clone! Who cares if it has a storyline that blows away all current single player RPGs, and most MMOs? It looks like Diablo! I shit you not I have had more fun playing GW this last week than I have since EQ. And I'm as purist as they come, and I fucking hated Diablo and never saw the point in games as linear as Dungeon Siege. Yet GW floats my boat, and big time, because it's fun, because it's hardcore, because I can't logoff even after playing 15 hours straight on a Saturday. Not since the days of EQ have I done that.

Granted, GW's however is not an MMO in the true sense, and it's longevity like most recent games is not assured.. It focuses on 8-man teams not massive zerg fests. It focuses a lot more on individual skill than having 40-60 warm bodies pressing buttons. Despite it's hardcore attitude and being the closest thing to a MUD since EQ, most hate it. I suspect this is due to people not wanting to have to think for themselves amidst 40 other players mashing buttons, but that's a subject for another time. But like GW, if Vanguard stays true to the roots of MUD and EQ, then it's success is already guarenteed. I could care less about the screens. So back my original subject, ignore the glitter and flash, and look for the proof in the pudding.




All that long-winded bullshit aside, wouldn't it be awesome if both DDO and Vanguard rocked? I'm still a believer it can happen.

[Ravensign]

I was really hoping Brad would have mentioned plasticy-ness in his post, and how he was personally de-plasti-cizing the game with a 2x4 in the head of anyone at Sigil who dares make anyone even think of EQ2 for 2 seconds when they look at the Vanguard screens.

You hear alot of people bitch about the graphics not mattering, its the core game that matters, and the thing is, it all matters. Why not strive for all of it? I want good PvE causal, hard core, good PvP, good graphics, good sound, good expansions, good solo, good grouping, don't let anything slack.

[Elgonn]

Originally posted by Jait
Pedigree counts for a lot.

Most people agree on this and this is why we have hope in vanguard. But this doesn't in any fashion let V:SoH off the hook for crappy screenshots that seriously could have mostly been made in 3D Studio Max. How do we know they are even in game shots? It isn't like there is a UI (mostly) or pictures that lend a believable sequence of events.

Brad. Make a new character and play the game for 30 minutes. Take a screenshot every minute. Release 30 screens. People will like these better than anything previously released. Even if ugly and buggy.

Not that it will happen. Vangaurd will be cloaked in mystery for a long time.

Originally posted by Jait
Who cares if it has a storyline that blows away all current single player RPGs, and most MMOs?

Bullshit. If you think you can compare GW to single player RPGs you need to put down the crack pipe.

[Angry Amadeus]

Originally posted by Elgonn
Brad. Make a new character and play the game for 30 minutes. Take a screenshot every minute. Release 30 screens. People will like these better than anything previously released. Even if ugly and buggy.

Not that it will happen. Vangaurd will be cloaked in mystery for a long time.

You mean until E3 in a week?

[Camerous]

^^^ Amen Raven.

Hell as much as I bash WoW it is GOOD to sometimes just be able to log on and kill shit without having to get a group up and making sure everyone in said group has atleast the smallest fucking clue as to how to play their class. On the other hand some days I want the huge 6 hour raids to get to the last guy and shut him down for the big reward. Damn it I want a game where I can solo to have fun and progess, no where near the rate as in a group though, and have a big 25 or 30 man raid to take out a boss. I thought EQ2 was the answer to all this and to an extent it was but it just got so boring to me. EQ2 is SO limiting that it made me not wanna play any more.
I have faith in Brad. I think Vanguard is gonna be good but we'll just have to wait and see how beta goes.

[Elgonn]

Originally posted by Angry Amadeus
You mean until E3 in a week?

I doubt we'll get much of anything from E3. The real "meat" of the game will still be hidden until beta.

DDO doesn't get to play that game because it already has a publicly available ruleset.

Typical Vanguard question:
"What is X like? Do you even have X? Is it kinda like Y or Z?"

Typical DDO question:
"How does a Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight ability work?" [I'd really like to know]

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally posted by Elgonn
I don't have much hope for DDO. I do have hope for Vanguard. Even so. Screenshot and video wise Vanguard sucks at the moment. I can't imagine how Brad can claim otherwise.

Hey now, don't mis-read what I posted

My post on our forums was to get feedback from players as to what sorts of screenshots and movies they're looking for so that we can make a serious effort into accomodating the more hard core gamer who wants to see depth and how the game plays and details, as opposed to a perfectly framed (but sometimes lifeless) shot.

[Elgonn]

Originally posted by Aradune Mithara
Hey now, don't mis-read what I posted

I'd like to believe you Brad but I'm sure you know without having to ask that your hardcore fans aren't looking for more EQ2 tech demos.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally posted by Elgonn
I doubt we'll get much of anything from E3. The real "meat" of the game will still be hidden until beta.

DDO doesn't get to play that game because it already has a publicly available ruleset.

Typical Vanguard question:
"What is X like? Do you even have X? Is it kinda like Y or Z?"

Typical DDO question:
"How does a Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight ability work?" [I'd really like to know]

Yes and no... a LOT of information will be released about the game at E3. Enough information, or detailed enough, to make the average poster here content? We'll see... We'll try, as most of you are certainly people we think will enjoy Vanguard.

I guess what I'm saying is that while a lot of the sekret sauce will be revealed, detailed working of mechanics and such won't be to the extent many of you probably want.... we need to get into beta and test this stuff before I commit to that level of specificity and detail, though.

[Aradune Mithara]

Originally posted by Elgonn
I'd like to believe you Brad but I'm sure you know without having to ask that your hardcore fans aren't looking for more EQ2 tech demos.

Exactly why I was asking the more hard core what THEY were looking for, so we can hopefully release stuff targetting you guys.