Anyone have new patch notes?

[Northerner]

Originally posted by Velk
Well just as a general example of mage vs rogue :

-Sheep is superior in every way to sap.
-Summoned water speeds up downtime drastically
-Mages are mostly unaffected by shortrange AE, sweeping attacks, damage shields etc
-Mages provide a useful caster buff
-Mage can silence at a distance
-AE wise rogues are not even fit to polish the mage's shoes.

So - if a mage did the same sustained dps as rogue, is there any particular reason you can think of to take a rogue for pve ?

I played a Rogue for many years in EQ. Some would even have called me a Rogue advocate at the time, and rightly so.

The WoW system is completely unlike what EQ ever used and the WoW caster is being boned presently in ways that even the '99 Rog could only dream about. Shit, even at our most borken in EQ we has a role, it just was not a very Roguely role.

At present, Mages are really pretty much done at the high-end. You can still win all the encounters with them along but they are not contibuting as they ought to be in my opinion.

[Benito Fireslinger]

last time i looked you needed mages for most of the encounters in MC and Onyxia...

Mages rock in PVP too, AEs 4tw

[Ameraves Loyalheart]

Well just as a general example of mage vs rogue :

-Sheep is superior in every way to sap.
-Summoned water speeds up downtime drastically
-Mages are mostly unaffected by shortrange AE, sweeping attacks, damage shields etc
-Mages provide a useful caster buff
-Mage can silence at a distance
-AE wise rogues are not even fit to polish the mage's shoes.

So - if a mage did the same sustained dps as rogue, is there any particular reason you can think of to take a rogue for pve ?

You dont seem to understand. Nobody wants mages to do the same sustained DPS as rogues. Now, stop for a minute and try to think very hard about this. Rogue_01 gets a fancy new Perdition's blade from Ragnaros, and its a good 17 DPS upgrade from his previous dagger. Now, lets tack on all the +attack power he is getting from gear upgrades in the way of agi and str and so on. Now lets look at mage_01 he gets some more int and spi, yay for a bigger mana pool. How in the hell is that going to up his DPS nearly the same as any Rogue, warrior or hunter that is getting new weapons and increase in attack power ?

[Arbuste]

At present, Mages are really pretty much done at the high-end. You can still win all the encounters with them along but they are not contibuting as they ought to be in my opinion.

And who the fuck is curing the curses?

I've been parsing lately (using DamageMeter, along with 1 Rogue and 2 Mages at least parsing and comparing results.) The last two raids (first one from Lucifron to Garr, second day up to Golemagg), 2 Mages did more DPS than the first Rogue. They were actually very close to each other, and the 3 or 4 other Mages were right behind this rogue.
Our 2 best Rogues use Dal'Rend swords / Combat build and Felstriker / Assassination build. They do roughly the same damage.
Our new Rogue apply (using a 35 DPS dagger and a Thrash Blade) did half the damage of the Mages and other rogues. (And our 4th Rogue was AFK half the fights.)

The results were, from memory:
Mage - 950k
Mage - 945k
Rogue - 940k
Mage
Rogue
Mage
Mage
Mage
Hunter - 600k
Hunter
Hunter
Rogue
...

I'd be more worried about our Hunters. FYI, the Mages have different specs (some Ice, some Arcane iirc.)

Our Mages are doing as much or more DPS than our Rogues, while taking care of curses (and that cuts their DPS) and taking very little damage.
Granted, we still got no good rogue or hunter weapons out of MC. But as a rogue, and given the trouble and mana required to keep me alive, I should do 50% more damage than any Mage. I doubt even a Gutgore will give me the DPS I need to fulfill a role in MC.

[Tripamang]

Even if there were patch notes, this would be a pretty bad place to ask.. Furor's ass would be promptly filled with a foot for letting such an occurence happen on his boards.

If the cooldown for MS is tied to delay it won't be a nerf, it'll be a properly balanced skill which MS never was. Same goes for SS, backstab etc.

[Tuco]

By the way, mages are completely overpowered in large scale PVP, because of AE.

[Rythonn]

Originally posted by Tindel
The solution to weapon vs spell balance is = make spells dependant on a weapon too!

This is what they should use wands for, or some gay trinket. As a multiplier for damage, let the lowlevel ones make a few % diff, and then ramp it up in the later levels when people start to care more about equipment.

And then you can have a rank system for spells and balance caster dps with weapon dps.

"fire trinket of wang 50% increased fire damage!!"

This is such an awsome idea. It so fits with everything we have always seen/heard/read about wizard needing a powerful staff for spells. The wand or staff/dagger should control dps of the spells.

[Kreugen]

Come back when your gear doesn't suck shit. When did your pickup group start raiding, monday?

None of our mages ever approach our best few hunters, And rogues? Ha ha.

We have single rogues that do more dps than half your raid combined, I think.

Originally posted by Arbuste
And who the fuck is curing the curses?

I've been parsing lately (using DamageMeter, along with 1 Rogue and 2 Mages at least parsing and comparing results.) The last two raids (first one from Lucifron to Garr, second day up to Golemagg), 2 Mages did more DPS than the first Rogue. They were actually very close to each other, and the 3 or 4 other Mages were right behind this rogue.
Our 2 best Rogues use Dal'Rend swords / Combat build and Felstriker / Assassination build. They do roughly the same damage.
Our new Rogue apply (using a 35 DPS dagger and a Thrash Blade) did half the damage of the Mages and other rogues. (And our 4th Rogue was AFK half the fights.)

The results were, from memory:
Mage - 950k
Mage - 945k
Rogue - 940k
Mage
Rogue
Mage
Mage
Mage
Hunter - 600k
Hunter
Hunter
Rogue
...

I'd be more worried about our Hunters. FYI, the Mages have different specs (some Ice, some Arcane iirc.)

Our Mages are doing as much or more DPS than our Rogues, while taking care of curses (and that cuts their DPS) and taking very little damage.
Granted, we still got no good rogue or hunter weapons out of MC. But as a rogue, and given the trouble and mana required to keep me alive, I should do 50% more damage than any Mage. I doubt even a Gutgore will give me the DPS I need to fulfill a role in MC.

[Digo]

I'm with Kreugen. Our rogues dominate dps, while hunters and mages come in behind. Our hunters would have more dps, but we like to have them pull. Mostly because we like watching them die.

For example, our four top rogues usually do 25% the raid's dps. Perhaps your rogues need to switch out of their sta gear and get some atk gear.

[Tripamang]

Originally posted by Digo
I'm with Kreugen. Our rogues dominate dps, while hunters and mages come in behind. Our hunters would have more dps, but we like to have them pull. Mostly because we like watching them die.

For example, our four top rogues usually do 25% the raid's dps. Perhaps your rogues need to switch out of their sta gear and get some atk gear.

I told the rogues to go all out in our last golemagg fight, one was even ballsy enough to keep melee'ing through the ae at 10%. The mages were rock bottom in that fight and they don't have much to do in terms of responsbility. A rogue with a gutgore and shitty offhand was almost 12% of the raid dps. Mages were in the 4-5% range.

[Dalien]

Here's what our numbers looked like after doing from Geddon->Rag yesterday. From other guilds we've been talking to seems like this is pretty standard.

Mx was using a core hound tooth and clocked in at close to ~1m damage over the day, couple of the other rogues have a Gutgore or one of those 1h swords from onyxia and were in the 700-900k ranges.

Mages were in the 400-600k ranges and honestly the only thing keeping us that high were the dual firelord pulls we were doing...

Hopefully when they redo the MC sets they find some better way to increase caster power (hint: make spirit useful, mages don't have mana problems in MC).

[Northerner]

Ok, let me say it again then.

There are *no* fights in MC that require AE. The only one that you can say presently requires the use of Mages is Majordomo and even there I can envision a time where you could squeeze by with a few, much like doing Garr without a full complement of Warlocks. Firelords, Core Hounds and Imps can all be done without Mages, although again they make life easy as can be. I'm not discounting the value of AE, merely pointing out that it sure ain't all that and a bag of crisps.

For single-target damage, Mages are ass. Even fully debufed and using the perfect raid-spec, a arc/frost Mage with a full complement of +damage gear will put out far too little damage in any fight. That's even presuming perfect tank aggro and a willingness to sit at point-blank range and clearcast CoC and blow fblasts. This isn't even about Rogues and Warriors getting uber equipment either. A Shanker Rogue can put up top Mage numbers on a single target with a half credible build.

Is this good? Is it intended? Is it whateverthefuck it ought to be? I don't know, but it's not where I think it should be in terms of balance.

There was a time not long ago when my Mage was parsing in as the top damage-dealer in MC by a margin of nearly 20% over the second place (a pure frost mage, where I was an arc/frost wearing +damage gear exclusively). I'd die four to five times a run just because I was pushing it. As the melees gear up though I am consigned to sucking wind, even if I blew my wad on every single pull. Sure, I can and do curse removal and such but in terms of raid-utility I'd rather have a Druid in that role without question. Hell, with the mods we use you don't even need more than a couple of decurse people anyhow.

[Digo]

Anyone else find it amusing that a month ago, many of us were bitching about how rogues had been marginalized in MC? Then when reliable parsing mods come out....

HOLY SHIT, ROGUES HAVE GIGANTIC DPeniS.

[Tripamang]

I don't think Molten Core/Onyxia are accurate indicators of the long term dps of a mage..

Before we go over the top, we have to look at the very closed minded and often repetitive encounters of molten core and how they don't accurately protray what will likely be the long term progression of raid encounters.

Take the tanking situation for exaomple and use it as a sort of a guideline.. it's all very very simple in molten.. all one mob and in comparison to a 5 man instance incredibly easy to tank. I don't think this is a feasible long term path in terms of difficulty, the mobs hit too hard for rage generation to be an issue and with everything being one mob it means a monkey can do it.

This isn't challenging in the long term, and probably won't be an accurate guage of future challenges. I wouldn't be surprised if AE becomes a very real and necessary recquirement in the future.. making damage requirements more situational rather than the typical single target encounters we've been seeing.

I think more so the problem isn't mages, but more likely there haven't been raid encounters that fully make use of mages.

[FuckYou]

I havent received any mailed-in leaked notes, not that I am the cliff claven of leaked notes or anything, but people do tend to mail me that shit when it is available. Doesnt mean they arent out there, but I dont have them atm or I would post them.

That being said, if anyone DOES have them or whatever, please email em to me on the patchtimer.org site and i'll post em up.

No way in hell this patch is coming in in <= 30 days if they are reworking the 2h system. It was already extremely likely to be late on BGs alone.