Vanguard - Brad speaks about Bazzar/NPC vendors

[Braen]

Not a big update, but I thought I woudl pass it along as selling while offline (in EQ2) and the Auctionhouse (in WoW) was a hot topic at their launch, as usual Brad-speak in bold:

I think a combination of offline player owned non-global vendors and players online selling and buying is what we're aiming for -- a little bit of the 'best of both worlds' here -- the main thing is that it's not global, which should make for a more interesting economy and hopefully price fluctuations based on where you are and where the item(s) you are buying and selling came from.

Remember, you will not be able to place offline vendors just anywhere -- most likely just in cities and player controlled towns, so there should still be online buying/selling/trading in areas where you cannot place vendors. Plus, even if you update your vendor(s) stock and prices frequently, supply and demand should be changing all of the time, so haggling for that much sought after loot will likely still be most efficient dealing with players who are online.

Brad stated in the past about creating "Silk Roads" Having resources only availible in certain areas and relying on the player base to transport them where they are needed. This creates a supply and demand situation, where in the area where the material is in abundance the price is low, but if the merchant had to transport it across the world (while is hinted at being incredibly large) through dangerous territory, it would drive the price up big time.

Imagine being a merchant trying to make a profit, you had to hire players/mercenaries to protect your caravan over a trade route and you paid them out of the profts from selling your goods. Or you could commision an group of players/merchants to deliver the goods to you from a long way off.

Of course teleports, insta travel and gates could all make this trival, but I ahve a feeling insta travel/teleports/books will be something Brad will fight against to make the world feel like a world and not a big hallway with lots fo doors to your favorite zones ala PoK.

[zilkoril]

I start to like Vanguard more and more as the days go by...

Much love for Brad.

Zilk

[Faille]

I can't wait to see how the tradeskill systems and the economy in general are implemented. After the simplistic way WoW does it and the total farce of EQ2's system, I am really itching for a good one.

[Braen]

More from the FAQ about silk roads and vendors:

We’re not too fond of global or centralized selling/buying systems. To us, part of a virtual world is making exotic lands that take time to travel to, have unique items, and allowing merchants and the like to create 'silk roads'... transporting items more common in one region to another, and selling them for more because they're rarer there. Global chat channels, bazaars, and the like take away from a lot of this.

Now, that doesn't mean we don't plan on having player controlled vendors and the like, ala Ultima Online for example, but they should be spread out all over the world. Additionally, we expect players to move their items around with them, with some limitations, either using a horse or a ship as storage (or as a 'mobile bank' per se).

And Faille I will look up what the released about the tradeskill ideas and post them in a sec.

[Braen]

Here you go Faille, from the FAQ:

7.5.1 How will crafting work?

Crafting will be a lot more involved, interactive, and exciting than traditional MMOG crafting systems. We feel strongly that crafting should be a lot more than click-click-click, or setting a harvesting device to extract materials while you go off to actually do something fun.

There are 2 so called "Spheres" in Vanguard. One being the Adventure sphere, which is independent of the Crafting Sphere. The Crafting Sphere being independent of the Adventuring Sphere, allows you as a player to broaden yourself in the game. The Crafting Sphere is somewhat different than the Adventuring Sphere, in that the Crafting Sphere has several parts.

In the Crafting Sphere you have both Harvesting Classes and Crafting Professions, both residing in the Crafting Sphere, but entirely independent of each other. The Harvesting Sphere will contain classes which you will select upon character creation.

The Harvester Classes currently planned (but not promised):

Foreman - focused on maintaining group stats and resource quality
Reaper - Focused on group buffs and resource quantity
Prospector - Focused on resource integrity and the predicting of detrimental obstacles
Gleaner- Focused on harvesting byproducts of resources

Notice that none of these are resource specific. That is because you can harvest any type of resources you wish, manipulating the resources into items falls under the Crafting Professions category.

The interesting logic behind these Harvesting Classes is that they compliment each other very well, which will encourage people to group while harvesting. Now why would you want to group to go harvest resources? Well the designers have thought long and hard about it and made it so that IF you are grouped with complimenting harvesting classes you will receive a bonus to your harvesting. This includes the possibility of increasing your chances to both harvest more efficiently as well as harvesting rarer resources.

Keep in mind that grouping is more than just getting a bonus to harvesting. Harvesting Classes have roles, just like Adventuring Classes. Some activities will require you to group up with other harvesting classes analogously just like certain monsters require more than one person to kill. More on this later.

7.5.2 How will crafting affect the economy?

Crafters and adventurers can not only co-exist, but they can be interdependent, allowing multiple types of play styles and preferences to exist in the same game-world making things more interesting and robust, especially when it comes to a player driven economy.

7.5.3 How will crafting affect dropped loot?

Some dropped loot will be materials for crafters; some materials for crafters will only be attainable by crafters; and there will still be special complete treasure found by adventurers the old fashioned way.

7.5.3.1 I think elsewhere in the FAQ it hinted that the most powerful items in the game would be crafted from rare dropped components, so both adventuring and crafting are necessary to make the most powerful items. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's pretty accurate. A good percentage of the components crafters will need to make these powerful items are found out in the field. In other words, they might drop off a boss mob in the depths of a dungeon or they might be found in the depths of a dungeon and need to be harvested from there, by the right people, with the right tools.

Bottom line: Some of the phat loot will be dropped complete from mobs or as quest rewards, but another big percentage will be dropped as components either from mobs, quest rewards, or from harvesting (which isn't necessarily in your back yard with the birds singing on a nice sunny day).

We hope this not only avoids concerns, but also that it creates interdependence between crafting and adventuring spheres. I see a lot of adventurers returning to towns to sell or have their friend use the components they received adventuring to make useful items (of both spheres) and I also see a lot of harvesters grouping with adventurers to guard them as they fight their way down to that rare vein of mithril that spawned in the depths of a nasty dungeon. Or to remove that cave-in that's blocking the way to either the boss mob, the rare harvesting spawn, or both

7.5.3.2 Can you tell me more about areas where I would be harvesting as a Crafter, my ability to defend myself, etc.?

1. You will still have the ability to defend yourself to some degree (see elsewhere in the FAQ).

2. Most harvesting areas won't have aggro mobs. Of course, the ones that yield that best stuff will, but those are group/raid areas where you need to have adventurers with you.

7.5.4 Will Crafters be able to mark the items they craft?

Items you craft will likely bear your signature in some form.

7.5.5 Assuming you can still perform "reasonably altho nowhere close to optimal" when you enter combat in trading sphere ...

Will you be able to, say, gather herbs at a "reasonably altho nowhere close to optimal" rate if you are in combat gear? Or is this a case of "that option is not available, please go back to town and change your sphere" game restriction ?

Unlikely you'll be able to harvest as an adventurer. The defending yourself as a crafter is there becuase of aggro mobs. We are currently not planning on having aggro harvesting components

7.5.5.1 If i am a high level warrior gathering and attacked by mobs can i still use my fighting abilities to defend myself although at a big disadvantage due to only wearing crafter gear and using a crafters tool as a weapon?

Yes, you have defensive abilities commensurate with your level so you are not pwned immediately (though I still reccomend having some adventurers around).

7.6 Can you tell me more about these two 'spheres' of gameplay, crafting and adventuring? How does one switch between the two? For example, can a group of adventures set out and some swap spheres to harvest ore or clear a rock fall then swap back to their adventurer sphere?

You switch spheres at an Outpost. Outposts are cities, villages, and also specified locations near adventure and crafting areas. At an outpost you switch spheres, hitch your horses and other vehicles, and bind. This should make it a natural hub for people to find each other, form groups, and head out. You do need to commit to which sphere you will be playing before leaving the Outpost, though nothing is stopping you from returning to the Outpost if you change your mind. You may also find yourself returning to an Outpost to change gear once you find out what's needed in that dungeon, in that your 'mobile' bank is also docked at the Outpost.

[Fammaden]

I think that the compromise Vanguard is aiming for will be good for everyone without excluding one camp or another on the day trader/virtual economy issue. Automated player controlled vendors of some sort but restricted to local economies instead of creating one global auction house or bazaar that is the one stop shop for any and every player in the game in most MMORPG's we have currently.

One worry could be that players will end up using one particular zone or region, or even a select few, as the default trading area, in which case we end up back in the same boat again despite the best efforts of the game designers. I suppose that VG could counter this if the world is large enough, travel is meaningful enough and the availability of resources is unique and dynamic enough fro one region to the next to facilitate a demand for economies in each different region. I still suspect that the players will be able to gravitate towards some arbitrary centralized hub of activity, but hopefully it goes as planned once the game is played and begins to mature.

[TheCutlery]

You switch spheres at an Outpost. Outposts are cities, villages, and also specified locations near adventure and crafting areas. At an outpost you switch spheres, hitch your horses and other vehicles, and bind. This should make it a natural hub for people to find each other, form groups, and head out. You do need to commit to which sphere you will be playing before leaving the Outpost, though nothing is stopping you from returning to the Outpost if you change your mind. You may also find yourself returning to an Outpost to change gear once you find out what's needed in that dungeon, in that your 'mobile' bank is also docked at the Outpost.

So, you can only craft, or you can only adventure.

Fuck that crap, what a goddamned timesink. You people waiting for this game are masochists of the highest order.

[Braen]

Originally posted by TheCutlery
So, you can only craft, or you can only adventure.

Fuck that crap, what a goddamned timesink. You people waiting for this game are masochists of the highest order.

You can do both... How many people in EQ1 were crafting in the middle of groups. About the only thing I saw was Fletching.

The rest required you to be in town at a kiln, Loom or Forge same with EQ2 and even WoW.

I would hope if you are adventuring with me you are paying attention to the group and not getting your Cook on.

[Elgonn]

I've liked everything Vanguard has previewed except its Tradeskill system. It seems wildly complicated for no particular reason. I keep getting flashes of SWG idiocy.

It even creates new LFG issues.

"Looking for Tank & Foreman in one."
"Looking for Priest & Gleaner in one."

Maybe I'm totally reading the system wrong but it sounds to me like it just made finding a good group even more annoying without a preexisting guild.

Originally posted by Braen
The rest required you to be in town at a kiln, Loom or Forge same with EQ2 and even WoW.

I'd have to disagree with WoW.

Blacksmithing, Mining, and Engineering are the only tradeskills that ever really require being in a town.

Alchemy, Herbalism, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Enchanting (especially), First Aid, Fishing, Cooking, Skinning require as much town interaction as getting reagents for spells.

[Digo]

I can't wait to see how the chinese gold farmers adapt to this one.

The Silk Road in Thestra: Packs of slanty-eyed elves roam the moors, transporting their stolen wares, babbling incoherently at anyone who tries to stop them. Only a sacred intonation may stop them -- tis said their very heads explode.

[Braen]

Originally posted by Elgonn
I've liked everything Vanguard has previewed except its Tradeskill system. It seems wildly complicated for no particular reason. I keep getting flashes of SWG idiocy.

It even creates new LFG issues.

"Looking for Tank & Foreman in one."
"Looking for Priest & Gleaner in one."

Maybe I'm totally reading the system wrong but it sounds to me like it just made finding a good group even more annoying without a preexisting guild.



I'd have to disagree with WoW.

Blacksmithing, Mining, and Engineering are the only tradeskills that ever really require being in a town.

Alchemy, Herbalism, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Enchanting (especially), First Aid, Fishing, Cooking, Skinning require as much town interaction as getting reagents for spells.

Well Skinning and Herbalism (might as well include Mining in this) to me aren't tradeskills.. They are gathering skills We only know the Crafting sphere is somethign you have to choose not the gathering. Plus we are discussing a feature that hasn't been finished yet.

Also Fishing requires a body of water so I hope you aren't doing that in a dungeon and cooking requires sitting next to a type of fire.

[Itzena]

Originally posted by Braen
Also Fishing requires a body of water so I hope you aren't doing that in a dungeon and cooking requires sitting next to a type of fire.

http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=6657

[Elgonn]

Originally posted by Braen
Well Skinning and Herbalism (might as well include Mining in this) to me aren't tradeskills.. They are gathering skills We only know the Crafting sphere is somethign you have to choose not the gathering. Plus we are discussing a feature that hasn't been finished yet.

Also Fishing requires a body of water so I hope you aren't doing that in a dungeon and cooking requires sitting next to a type of fire.

I didn't include Mining because it encompasses Smelting that you can't usually do out of town.

Itz already covered fishing but you do realize you can use Cooking (which absorbed the old Survival skill) to make a fire?

About 'only' choosing Crafting? Am I supposed to assume that anyone in the group can gather any material at any time while also switching what job they are doing at the moment? (Foreman, Gleaner, etc)

I'm not seeing how this works well if the party has to find yet another synergy to deal with.

[Braen]

Damn that is what I get to seeing too many spheres.

Yes in cooking you can create a fire, but again that means you have to stop down and cook. Since people all the time complain about downtime and people wondering off to mine or skin or herb.... I don't see it as that big of an issue. I love it when we are pulling and somoene has run off to "mine this ore real quick"

Yeah the Harvesting Classes and Crafting Professions will be under the same sphere. So that means you will avhe to choose to be in Craft/Harvesting mode whne you leave the outpost.

I can see the problems with this in the fact that you could be adventruing and see some nice resources and have to ignore them. But according to what I have read from the devs, harvesting and crafting will be just as involved as adventuring.

It's not like walk up to a Iron deposit, click a button and viola you have ore. But with the 4 classes working together will determine the quality, type and amount. So you will have groups of harvesters our there along with the groups of adventurers.

I think people need to get out of their heads that there are only parties of adventurers and Vanguard is trying to find a way to make tradeskillers more involded in the game other than, something fun to do in the down time.

[Jait]

This sounds an AWFUL lot like the original design for EQ2. Even EQ2 eventually realized it was a bad idea to create Artisan classes. They toned them down a great deal during Beta, and even now through recent patches they have continued to dumb it down, and dumb it down even further.

Brad's old school, and being a gamer like him I understand what he's trying to do, but it just won't be widely accepted by the general gaming crowd and certainly not from the "hard-core" who are far, far more interested in challenges through game mechanics and encounters rather than "Sim Online" jobs.

That said, if he can get it to work, kudos. But I really hope he's prepared to scrap the system and put something else in place if it's utterly rejected during Alpha/Beta. I really believe that crafting should be a seperate game entirely, and work your way up from there. If you want to have player controlled resources that require adventurers to clear the Mines before the Miners can go in and work, so be it. But please show me the Fantasy novel where a Mine is taken over by Orcs, and they decide to team up warriors with miners and skinners.

I like WoW system to be honest. Skinners are often bottom feeders (said with affection), coming to the battlefield when all is said and done. Miners work in dangerous situations to be sure, but their danger is the environment, not the creatures that inhabit the Mines. Umber Hulks show up, the Miners evac, and the Warriors go to work. When it's clear the Miners return. Same applies with the Forest and the Tree-Cutters and everything else.