Vanguard - Brad speaks about Bazzar/NPC vendors

[Samus Aran]

Originally posted by Duppin
You know something? Despite the fact that it was really slow paced, and not a "combat" game...

ATITD was sorta fun.

I know, I know.

I concur. It was fun in a twisted, sick sort of way..

[Velk]

Originally posted by Braen
or hire other player/adventurers to protect you while you are mining. Creating a "class" of player mercs.

Braen - would *you* take in game currency to escort tradesfolk around for extensive periods of time if you had no critical reason to do so ?

I'll even widen it up a bit - would *anyone at all* reading this board do this by choice ?

Even if it was your best friends, isn't this going to lead to painful level imbalances as the guards get experience protecting the craftsmen ? Or do craftsmen get to leech exp off their friends while they are mining ?

[Braen]

Originally posted by Velk
Braen - would *you* take in game currency to escort tradesfolk around for extensive periods of time if you had no critical reason to do so ?

I'll even widen it up a bit - would *anyone at all* reading this board do this by choice ?

Even if it was your best friends, isn't this going to lead to painful level imbalances as the guards get experience protecting the craftsmen ? Or do craftsmen get to leech exp off their friends while they are mining ?

I had a friend offered 10 G just to use his level 55 Priest to escort his low level group to Uldaman to see the Enchanter there. So yeah people do offer money to get their low level toons or whatever to different places.

Now, again, we are discussing a feature that isn't even been released nor has all the information about it been fleshed out. But how about this for a thought.

How about the "random encounters" on this journey along the silk road actually effect your cargo? How about if you don't defentd it, the bandit mobs can actualy steal your stuff you are shipping? And you need adventurers to protect you.

How about if they get away some of your stuff you can either come back as yoru adventurer self and get it back or hire PCs to do it for you.

I know many people who play EQ2 and basically only tradeskill because it is a deep and "advanced" system. I can see people being true merchant/crafters in Vanguard if the economy and players/devs imagination can support it.

Again my purpose here is not to convince people that don't like features of Vanguard that "OMG HOWZ COME J00 DON'T LEKI TI!", I just want to put information (which in alpha and pre E3 is hard to find) on these boards for most intelligent discussion. If you choose to base yoru opinion that this game is a long, hard grind, with massive timesinks and only for the hardest of the hardcore from the little information that has been put out, that is up to you. If just one person appreciates the information I am posting, then cool.

I am by no means an expert on all the different systems in Vanguard. I would love to be truely in the loop, be invited to alpha/beta (cheep plea for beta) and play the game at release cause I really enjoyed Brad and friends last outing with EQ. It took a good 5 + years of my gaming life. I can only imagine what he could come up with next.

As Fammaden said in another thread, Vanguard may not be for everyone and Sigil might not want it to be. WoW is THE game to most people and that is cool. He wants to make his world. He wants people to come enjoy it, if it is 300,000 people or 2 million.

Microsoft stuck with Turbine and AC1 and 2 for years and they were always the "other" MMO. They gave up on them and their own homegrown MMO "Mythica" to put all their support behind Sigil and that tells me something. One: MS sees money. Two: I know Vanguard has staying power and Three: Sigil will have the finanical backing to do things that others might not be able to.

[Aradune Mithara]

Couple of notes for clarity, although we're not ready to reveal too much of harvesting and crafting as that awaits E3 and also there will definitely be a lot of tuning during beta.

I agree totally that players don't want to run through hoops and a major hassle to gather components and then to craft them into useful items. Our goal is to make harvesting and crafting fun and involve a class system distinct to that sphere of gameplay. Harvesting, for example, will involve a full skill system and use items to enhance your ability to harvest higher quality components, very much the same as adventuring (where what class you are, what items you’ve equipped yourself with, and where your skills are at/what level you are is key). It will also involve contested rolls, just like adventuring -- we're not trying to over-complicate here; rather, we're trying to make crafting more involved and fun as opposed to a boring click fest as we've seen in previous MMOGs.

We're also re-thinking how one switches between one sphere and another -- we agree that having to run back to an outpost is probably too tedious and are re-working our thinking here a bit (again, beta will help a great deal -- the balance between too easy and mindless vs. too complicated and tedious we are determined to find through beta test feedback). The bottom line I think is that MMOGs *have* to break out of mindless clicking to create end products and to skill up -- we are determined to make it both challenging and fun.

Also, in most cases, harvesters will not be in danger of being attacked, so the idea of constantly convincing or hiring adventurers to escort you isn't really accurate (although rare spawns of very useful harvestable components will likely be found in dangerous areas).

Bear with us on this stuff please -- consider our goals moreso than the details (or lack of details) we've released. Again, we want to make harvesting and crafting as involved and as fun as adventuring for people who enjoy this type of gameplay. There are separate classes, skills, and items for the crafting sphere, as well as a completely different experience pool. And for those who simply don't care for harvesting & crafting, you can just adventure -- we're trying to appeal to *more* types of gamers here, not make crafting/harvesting a hassle for the more adventure oriented gamer.

Lastly, I think the artisan in EQ 2 was abandoned because that's all he could do: harvest & craft. With our multi-sphere system you can participate in either aspect of gameplay, or just focus on one.

Bottom line: we're going to try to make each sphere just as fun as the other (by introducing risk vs. reward in each sphere, classes, and items that make you a more effective craftsman), but if during beta this doesn't pan out, the design easily accommodates making harvesting/crafting secondary (yet still essential in the sense that the adventurer will need and want the products that harvesting/crafting yield).

Anyway, your skepticism and concerns are heard and we share them internally, yet at the same time feel giving this a solid try is worth the effort in order to attract more types of gamers and to bring this genre forward.

thanks for listening,


-Brad

[Sorran]

I say this with all due respect Brad, believe that, but I think you have lost sight of the forest for the trees (I hope I've got the metaphor around the right way ). I think you are you putting so much effort into working out how these systems are going to work that maybe you've forgotten to ask what purpose they serve in the first place.

I'm not a MMOG designer, so I'm prepared to accept that I haven't got a goddamn clue as to what I'm talking about, but as a *player*, I look at the information you've released about Vanguard, and simply ask myself "why?". Why do you even have spheres to begin with? It seems like such an arbitrary and unecessary system - how does it help me have more fun playing the game? A lot of what I read about Vanguard feels like game design for the sake of game design. I mean can't you have everything you want (challenging tradeskill system that rewards effort, items that are useful to crafters and adventurers alike, and son), without the concept of a sphere and switching between them existing at all?

Yes I realise that you haven't released all the information about Vanguard and that come that day, I may well be eating my hat, but for now, at least, I see systems that look like they would get in the way of my fun, not enchance it.

I don't want it to seem like I'm attacking your work - I can only imagine how much time and effort you've poured into Vanguard, so please don't take it that way .

Cheers,

Sorran.

[Elgonn]

Originally posted by Aradune Mithara
but if during beta this doesn't pan out, the design easily accommodates making harvesting/crafting secondary

I'd love to see in beta how it works before retail because I can't imagine how at least the harvesting part will ever be considered fun or rewarding.

I've played a game where you had to actually Blacksmith out a sword. Keep the right heat. Use the right materials. Work the metal over time and slowly. Cool in water or oil. It was amusing. In that primitive form it wasn't for me but I can at least visualize making crafting fun.

I can't imagine how you can make people who are no longer adventurers take a liking to harvesting. My mage just went spellless, is wearing his mining outfit and oddly wielding a pick. Somehow I'm now in the middle of no where probably 15+ minutes off the beaten path looking for something to get. It also took a trip to town to even switch out? (Here's hoping for mage ports)

I'll read everything on the Vanguard site and all the E3 material. Please please show me how anyone is going to enjoy harvesting.

[Frax]

Some people actually have fun just crafting. Aren't there people who play UO to this day still chopping trees down?

[Rimidal]

Nobody is FORCING you to craft... however those that want to put in the effort required will be rewarded.
It seems like a bunch of people who would never craft in the first place are talking about how much they don't like Vanguard crafting... well no shit? Leave it to the people who want to do it. It sounds like it will take effort, and thus actually be worth something. Good job!

[Camerous]

Some of the most fun I have ever had was crafting shields in the orginal UO. I had a formule for how many shields I could carry per trip, how many logs it would take to make those shields, how much I would make per trip, and how many trips I would have to make to buy the things I wanted. I got my first 2 GM, sword and tactics, to just be able to defend myself while out chopping. That was what was fun for me. *shrugs* Diffrent strokes and all that.
The point is EQ killed true crafting and no game since has really gotten back to making crafting a fun and profitable thing to do. EQ would nerf crafting if artsians started to turn a profit...wtf is the point but to make money?
Edit (profit from selling to npcs not pcs)
I think Vanguard has the chance of taking us back to where it was fun and PROFITABLE to craft.
But at the same I don't think I like the whole sphere thing. If I want to carry a fishingpole/pick/skinning knife with me as I go about slaying monsters then so be it. Why should I be limited? Give me all those cool things you are talking about but don't penalize me just cause I wanted to go kill some goblins on the way to the mine/tree.

[Elgonn]

Originally posted by Camerous The point is EQ killed true crafting and no game since has really gotten back to making crafting a fun and profitable thing to do.

Profitable? What game isn't it profitable in? You can make a profit in EQ, EQ2, WoW, Horizons, SWG, etc...

[Camerous]

Read the edit :-)

[Elgonn]

I did. You can make a profit vs Players and NPCs (mostly).

[Camerous]

How can you make a profit in EQ from vendors? It is specifically set up so that doesn't happen. Same in SWGs. Same in DAoC. Same in any game I can think of but UO as a matter of fact.

[Elgonn]

Sounds like you haven't tried WoW as a blatant example of tradeskills making money vs an NPC. Works in other games as well (yes I know they try to not have it happen quite often). DAOC you can make money easily.

[Camerous]

I don't mention WoW cause frankly I think the game sucks ass and would rather not think about it. :-) But as for DAoC I have a legandary armorcrafter and I can tell you for a fact that you do not make money selling to npcs compaired to what it takes to skill up and the cost of failures.