Guild Point Systems

[Malvesti]

FY's system defeats inflation on the front-end, by adjusting raid points awarded based on points spent.

The auction system defeats inflation on the back end, by forcing players to bid against each other. Inflation across all players doesn't matter, since it applies to all equally.


To me, it seems administratively easier if each Onyxia kill gives every participant 10 points (for example) instead of Today's Onyxia kill being worth 10 points but next week's Onyxia kill is worth 5 points because worse loot dropped.

I haven't seen an administrative nightmare with the auction system. You have one channel devoted to bidding. Keep going until there's a highest bidder, who wins. You do have to police the channel--don't let people waste time nickel and diming, don't allow people to go negative, penalize people who try to retract a bid, etc. But every member shares in the administration, rather than putting the burden on a few officers.

[FuckYou]

the administrative problems we had in EQ were generally due to time constraints.

you cant stop in the middle of VT for 20 minutes to bid on 3 items - you have to keep moving. same as in time / KT / whatever.

maybe things are different in wow - i havent done MC yet.

[Mkopec1]

I think its time for the game companies to provide in game tools to help manage a system like DKP, at least tracking players for the leaders and their kills they participated in.

Once you /join raid it should auomatically assign points based on time invested and boss and sub-boss killed. And the leaders can assign the appropriate point worth to both.

I remember in AO we had a bot in the guild that did just that. The raid leaders set up the pont costs for hours attended, boss mobs killed and sub boss killed. I think it was 1 point for every hour attended, 3 points for sub-bosses and 5 points for a main boss. And the bot kept track for you so you could see point totals at any time.

The auctions all started at 5 points. And depending on the item the point cost would smetimes be 300 points and sometimes you were the only one bidding and get an item for a steal.

This system really released all the burden from the leaders which could concentrate on the raid instead of trying to worry about points and stupid shit.

Where the fuck are all the guild management tools? It hink its about high time we start seeing these implemented into the games core. Including the auction part of it.

[Malvesti]

I agree that an auction system *could* be slow, but with proper procedures, it need not be. We auctioned in VT just fine. About 2 minutes of auction per item is all it takes. Depending on the zone and mob layout, the people who aren't bidding can move on and continue clearing, or gate out and move to the next zone, or whatever. The lootmaster doesn't even have to stay at the corpse.

You can have special rules for certain encounters where loot timing is critical. I recall doing pre-bid on all of Blood's potential drops so we wouldn't have to mess with it while recovering and waiting for Emp.

[FuckYou]

DKP / point systems are far to proprietary from guild to guild to have an in-game system. IMO.

[boy-]

The auction system, aside from taking a while after each mob, has a few other drawbacks that creates problems.

- You can't force people to actually bid fairly and reasonably. The rogues can always roll beforehand ,then buy the JTB for 1dkp. Which of course means they all have more dkp to bid on the rest of the chain. This in turn may screw your shamans, who actaully bidded on their TA.

So basically you get penalized for 'playing fairly', then everyone just negotiates and/or rolls, then bids the mindkp on an item.

-The saverupper problem is a big issue here too, especailly when you need to do things like gear your tanks with ac, but they're hoarding all their dkp so they can get the first dbow drop. I guess in wow the analgous situation would be with Deathstriker. The person who wins the deathstriker is probably the person in all the level 40 'of the monkey' gear, since he never spent his points on anything else.

[Quineloe]

Originally posted by Glayde
Moo.

I hate pointhoarders who hate DKP systems that try to avoid pointhoarding.

lost quarm loot to a hoarder after you blew everything on tier5 loot?

[Malvesti]

Not to be the official apologist for dkp/auction systems, but I'll answer boy's issues.

- Collusion destroys the system--completely agree. Collusion, bid retraction, artificial bid inflation (bidding on other than CAWU) all must be prohibited and dealt with sharply (zero-out their DKP balance or whatever). You can't design a system that is cheat-proof--non-auction systems are more vulnerable to cheating and favoritism by administrators, for example.

- To your second point, I have two answers. First, if there is gear that the leader feels must go to only a certain class (Felstriker?) then just put that rule in place. Second, one of the great strengths of the auction system is that it spreads the thinking and decision-making about resource allocation out amongst 40 people instead of a few officers. People, in their off time, can spend all the time they want thinking about whether one sword is better than 10 pieces of armor, or whatever. If the points that people are willing to spend don't match what the officers thought the points "should have been," then it's totally possible the officers are wrong. Maybe they don't understand that THIS hat is actually the best one for hunters, even if it seems like a prototypically shaman item (or whatever). DKP auction systems let those 40+ brains work and do research that an officer or loot council just can't do as well.

[Frawdo]

Zero Sum DKP with private auctions (tells) is the only way to go.

[Quineloe]

Originally posted by Malvesti
(bidding on other than CAWU)

sorry, but how can this be a problem?

[Suineg]

CAWU = ??

Cocks Against Women United

[Kolle]

I think the best DKP system is one that allows great flexibility for quality of items, expansions and updates, and point hoarding. This isn't specifically for WoW, but I will give my opinions.


The reason I don't like point hoarding is because it hurts the guild as a whole depending on which class is doing it. For example if you're in a situation where you break your raid apart into groups to handle waves etc... and a few of your clerics and warriors suck ass because they are saving all their points for the ultimate boss loot that you can't even kill yet... that just increases your chance of failure.

This can hold true for all sorts of different raid scenarios. Maybe with 70 people it doesn't matter, but the cliche of only being as strong as your weakest link can hold true for 20-40 In many situations.





This and other reasons is why you create a DKP where amount of points doesn't matter in the same way it does for most DKP systems. This helps point hoarding and upgraded/new items. This way you don't have to keep some huge database of point values for items and update it everytime there's an expansion or a patch.


So you give people a set amount of points for each hour or 30 mins that they attend a raid. Whatever best fits your guild's needs. Here's a simple breakdown. I have a huge log somewhere of this being better detailed, but I can't remember where I put it atm.

1. When an item drops you take tells.

2. Whoever has the most points gets the item and their point value is reduced by Half. Doesn't matter if they had 50 points or 100, it gets reduced by half.

3. There is no minimum point value needed to send a tell for an item.

4. An item receiving only 1 tell only reduces point value by 10%

5. An item receiving only 2 tells only reduces point value by 25%



That's the most simple explanation, although there's a lot more to it that I can't type off the top of my head. Each guild would need there own rules for things like how long you must be a member to qualify etc...



A system like this:

1. Eliminates point hoarding and keeps all your members equipped and helpful (at least moreso than other dkp's)

2. Allows for changed items and expansions without Any need to update your system. It does it automatically and does not require you to give point values to any item

3. Automatically adjusts itself for more popular and less popular items

4. Requires less upkeep than many dkp systems

5. Still allows members who raid the most to get the most without the problems of hoarding



One gripe might be that someone who raids all the time doesn't get a lot more than someone who raids little. But that isn't the case. If you raid more you would still be able to get more.

[FuckYou]

i love to put my cock(s) against women

[FuckYou]

2. Whoever has the most points gets the item and their point value is reduced by Half. Doesn't matter if they had 50 points or 100, it gets reduced by half.

this is pretty arbitraty and seperates the value of raids from the value of items.

if three nights of raiding net you an average of say 10 dkp a night (hypothetical) and it is going to cost you half of your 300 saved points to get a marginal upgrade, then no one is going to aye on marginal upgrades. and you NEED people to aye on marginal upgrades. not only does it improve the guilds raidability, but it gets points moving in and out.

[Tomas]

What is the story with the dozens of "OMG DPK SISTEMS SUK!?!" posts on the WoW General Forums now?