An idea to help rogues at the High end

[Itzlegend]

Oh my god... you can replace a dps class with a different dps class? What kind of fucked up balance is blizzard trying to pull!

[Dyvim]

Originally posted by FoghornDeadhorn
That there is no way to use rogues in MC in quantity, despite my use of the word "useless." The point is that there are enough encounters in which their DPS is gimped that you could mostly replace them with hunters and have a lot easier time. At the expense of DPS verses some mobs? Obviously, or they wouldn't have such high raid total damage.

If by "enough encounters", you mean "Shazzrah", then sure I agree.

[robbrown]

We usually have upwards of 8 rogues AND similar number of warriors. Average 4-6 priests and a few more on average shaman and have no problem killing mobs in molten core. It's not the class.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally posted by Dyvim
If by "enough encounters", you mean "Shazzrah", then sure I agree.

OK then, show me a mob-by-mob parse with comparisons between hunters and rogues, and prove me wrong. I have no problem with it taking skill for a rogue to lay good damage in the zone, I just don't believe you can honestly say that you would happily replace hunters with rogues and not feel there was much lost, even outside of Shazz, unless you get very specific with your mobs. There are certainly many pulls in which they will lay gross DPS.

Feel better Itz? Were you waiting for this for long?

[Dyvim]

Originally posted by FoghornDeadhorn
OK then, show me a mob-by-mob parse with comparisons between hunters and rogues, and prove me wrong. I have no problem with it taking skill for a rogue to lay good damage in the zone, I just don't believe you can honestly say that you would happily replace hunters with rogues and not feel there was much lost, even outside of Shazz, unless you get very specific with your mobs. There are certainly many pulls in which they will lay gross DPS.

I would happily replace Hunters with Rogues for the most part, yes.

Refer to Delheru's earlier post. Our rogues even outdamage our hunters slightly on Golemagg.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Itzlegend
Oh my god... you can replace a dps class with a different dps class? What kind of fucked up balance is blizzard trying to pull!

Indeed, how DARE THEY?!

And god forbid they put in a raid zone where mobs don't have many AE attacks and Rogues never have to back out - then it will really be shown how much they truely grossly outdamage Hunters and Mages (two, you know, DPS classes?). Not that they already don't in every part of the game outside of MC and Onyxia...

[Torrid]

Wow. The number of variables being ignored in this thread is amazing.

First off, rogues don't "sit out" for those fights. They used ranged attacks. Rogue gun/bow damage is the 2nd best among non-hunters.

You could replace all your rogues with hunters, take ONE healer out of the raid, and replace that healer with another hunter, and make up ALL of the lost DPS and then some.

Rogue damage is also the "riskiest" due to feint being such utter shit. While hunters can blast away with no worries due to FD, I'm waiting until onyxia is 90% hp before engaging, in FR gear. Must be nice to not need resist gear.

Rogues are SUPPOSED to be the best long term dps. They don't bring anything else to the table. This is at a high healing cost. Yet on top of doing 90% rogue damage at little upkeep, other DPS classes also bring AoE and other utility.

Just because you kill the mob faster with rogues, doesn't mean it wouldn't have been an easier fight without them. Sure, now that MC has long been in farm status, it is easy to say how uber rogue damage is. (all 10% more of it) Hows about you show me your DPS logs when you were still trying to beat the encounters?

Don't whine to make rogues useless in PvE just because die to them in PvP because you suck.

For the record, Golemagg is a rogue friendly encounter. His aoe's recast is an eternity and is EASILY visible due to the tank falling on his ass.

edit: also, comparing WoW's raid game to EQ's is retarded, when almost every AoE was 300 range. (hint: spell range was 200)

[Awanka]

Didn't read this whole thread, but in Baldur's Gate 2 - or was it Icewind Dale 2? - rogues had an ability called Evasion, which gave them a some 30-50% chance to avoid an AE spell effect. The logic behind it I suppose is that they do some sort of ninja roll to avoid it. This would of course make rogues much more powerful in pvp, but it's something Blizzard might want to implement as an ability in the feature.

[Metranon]

Don't whine to make rogues useless in PvE just because die to them in PvP because you suck.

i dont think i ever said rogues should be nerfed or made "useless" in PvE, although i'm sure it must be comforting to say i suck for getting killed by them from the safety of your PvE server where your only fights with other players are in duels.

my point is that they don't need additional abilities to avoid damage, or additional DPS. Mobs with a nasty AE are made to hurt melees, thats the point of giving them that ability. A melee class needs to find a way to counter this ability on raids-- warriors do it by having enough hitpoints to often soak up the effect, paladins heal themselves or invuln shield.

Rogues, by nature, do much more damage than paladins or warriors, and thus have less hit points and less utility (no heals). thus, it seems fitting to me that they bite the bullet and find alternative ways to be effective in the few (3 mobs in the entire game, oh nos) situations where mobs have a powerful PBAE. Rogue DPS in almost every other fight still makes them a valuable asset overall.

i don't think theres any easy way the rogue class could be changed in order to make them better able to avoid mob AE's at raids without making them stronger than they already are in other situations, such as group PvE, solo PvE, and group and solo PvP. If anyone can come up with a good idea for how to do so, i'd love to hear it.

[Felonius]

I've never been to MC, but why would rogues afk during encounters that they cant melee? I know that bow damage is not even a quarter of a rogues melee damage, but my bow can do double what my off hand by itself, so i usually do that if something has a terrible aoe.

[DelheruRN]

Originally posted by Torrid
First off, rogues don't "sit out" for those fights. They used ranged attacks. Rogue gun/bow damage is the 2nd best among non-hunters.

Yet this is crappy damage compared to what they COULD be doing.

You could replace all your rogues with hunters, take ONE healer out of the raid, and replace that healer with another hunter, and make up ALL of the lost DPS and then some.

At.. um... what? At golemagg hunters, mages and smart rogues take pretty much the same damage (the dangerous part being the fireballs). The only mob where our rogues take significantly more damage than hunters is Gehennas, and that's because rogues can't help concentrating some, which gets them rained on more often.

Rogue damage is also the "riskiest" due to feint being such utter shit. While hunters can blast away with no worries due to FD, I'm waiting until onyxia is 90% hp before engaging, in FR gear.

In phase1 our rogues tend to take it somewhat easy too. This has never stopped them from doing by far the most damage during Onyxia though.

Must be nice to not need resist gear.

Admittedly this is a clear advantage for hunters and mages. However, that just makes it more obvious that no gear they get will ever compare in use to a rogue getting a good resist set and some good weapons. A rogue with 0FR and shitty weapons is nothing. A rogue with high FR

Rogues are SUPPOSED to be the best long term dps. They don't bring anything else to the table. This is at a high healing cost. Yet on top of doing 90% rogue damage at little upkeep, other DPS classes also bring AoE and other utility.

90%? You're kidding, right?

Just because you kill the mob faster with rogues, doesn't mean it wouldn't have been an easier fight without them. Sure, now that MC has long been in farm status, it is easy to say how uber rogue damage is. (all 10% more of it) Hows about you show me your DPS logs when you were still trying to beat the encounters?

Hmm our rogues don't really do anything new. On several mobs our difficulty was actually with the non-rogues (the massive need for dispels at Geddon was a bitch, while rogues were easy and free damage).

It isn't so much about learning the encounters as our rogues improving. Still, the only mobs they didn't do damage on originally were destroyers. They were doing pretty good on Golemagg from attempt #1. They were also always doing rather good on Onyxia as well.

To me it seems obvious that rogues are the best dps class on raids. This is compensated by making sure they're also way more difficult to play on most encounters than hunters and mages. To me this seems reasonable...

The most valid gripe is that you're never forced to optimize to the degree that you'd really feel the lack of rogues. IE an encounter where there is a reason to kill fast. Best would be healers going oom, but that seems impossible to arrange in WoW currently. Majordomo is a good example of an encounter which could be great for this. And it is a nice test of dps if you have something like 12 healers. Problem of course is, it's SO much easier to just have enough heals to simply outlast it. 18 healers and I can not possibly see how you could lose.

My point is: rogues as a class are immensily powerful. There is nothing to be tuned about them. However, the only encounter where the rogue supreme dps is more useful than, say, added heals, is Kazzak. There's just no real sense of urgency anywhere, which means that a defensive posture (favouring alliance guilds with 20 healers per raid) tends to be easier to use during the learning phase.

[Torrid]

Originally posted by DelheruRN
In phase1 our rogues tend to take it somewhat easy too. This has never stopped them from doing by far the most damage during Onyxia though.

90%? You're kidding, right?

Originally posted by Sean
#1 - Uzabiji, 1.31 Million damage
#2 - Sean, 1.26 Million damage.

If your hunters arn't doing at least close to rogue damage on Onyxia, then they suck. Use FD and drink.

They were doing pretty good on Golemagg from attempt #1. They were also always doing rather good on Onyxia as well.

Why does everyone bring up Golemagg? He is as rogue friendly as it gets in MC.

To me it seems obvious that rogues are the best dps class on raids. This is compensated by making sure they're also way more difficult to play on most encounters than hunters and mages. To me this seems reasonable...

Uh huh. Ok, next time replace all your hunters and mages with Rogues in MC. They are the best dps, right? You'll do better.

Then replace all your rogues with hunters and mages. Tell me how you do.

[DelheruRN]

Originally posted by Torrid
If your hunters arn't doing at least close to rogue damage on Onyxia, then they suck. Use FD and drink.

Rogues do about 100k. Hunters tend to do around 60-70k. The gap explodes in phase3 where hunters are way higher maintenance than rogues the way we do it (and of course because our rogues have 250-300fr for it).

Need to time the fight next time to make those numbers in any way comparable though. I mean I bet a hunter with an extremely defensive posture raid will outdamage any rogue in a more offensive raid during a whole MC clear... or Onyxia for that matter. Going to kill everything wednesday most likely, so we can post some results.

Why does everyone bring up Golemagg? He is as rogue friendly as it gets in MC.

What exactly is rogue unfriendly in MC then? Shazzrah obviously, but what else?

Uh huh. Ok, next time replace all your hunters and mages with Rogues in MC. They are the best dps, right? You'll do better.
Then replace all your rogues with hunters and mages. Tell me how you do.

What a stupid setup. Obviously we'd have difficulties at shit like Gehennas and Majordomo where mages have very important duties on the utility side. Or magmadar where hunters can tranq shot.

Not to mention the encounters are obviously meant to support a balanced mix of classes. Only huge secret you've exposed is that rogues are not mandatory on any mob. For another scandalous exposure... replace all your druids and shaman with priests. For the Horde I can't think of any less harmful replacement of 2 classes by 1. I'd also rather replace all shaman with priests than all rogues with hunters.

However, I'm quite happy where we are right now, and feel that a steady mix is best for now. Warlocks maybe suck a bit with the debuff problems, but once those are fixed, they'll be extremely good.

PS Not everyone has the composition to do such replacements anyway. We'd run out of rogues after one or two mages have been replaced.

[Dalien]

I love our rogues.

You'd think some ranged DPS classes would be more useful for stuff like onyxia p2 right? We used to spread out during p2 and let ranged DPS take her down while rogues sat around afk or whatever, since her lil fireballs are easy to outheal. Well alot of our ranged guys stopped showing/quit etc, so we started putting a team of rogues following her around during p2 meleeing her... and p2 lasts like 2-4 minutes now, its amazing how much dps these guys do heh.

Anyways, if you're not using your rogues for DPS on some fights, you're wasting them (besides maybe shaz). They can easily run in on most fights, build combo points, run out and bandage if ae hurts them too much, run back in and fire their finisher etc.

I'd be pissed about rolling a mage if we weren't so good at AE; rogues smoke us big time on single target dps.

[Scaffa]

Of course, if they did add the energy regeneration reduction ability rogue DPS would fall behind quite alot, bringing us back to the "Why bring a rogue?" argumant.