An idea to help rogues at the High end

[Metranon]

on a pvp server rogues are very well balanced with the fact they excel at ganking and are difficult to kill 1v1 since they can often sprint/vanish away

if you played a rogue on a PvE server, well hey, tough luck on not using your character to its full potential, maybe you can appreciate it in battlegrounds

[Dynalisia]

Do you actually know what balance is Metranon?

[Szlia]

The only problem with rogues at the high end I can think of is that they whine that their class epic armor does not drop and when it does they do not want to loot it because it's garbage... but all this stuff will be upgraded in a patch or two (I hope I'll live long enough to see that).

[Phoenix]

That has to be one of the most stupidest fucking ideas ive ever seen reguarding class balance.

There is a fucking reason rogues cant heal you idiots. Next you will suggest paladins need a good nuke.

I just dont get this problem. It was the EXACT same way in EQ, but no one bitched out monks/bards/rogues/warriors not being able to heal themselves.

[Froofy-D]

Rogue is one of the best PVP class. Apparently (looking at Sean's numbers) they also outdamage every other class in a PVE raid setting. Yeah Rogues are really broken in the high end game.

[Lenaldo]

the problem is that in EQ resists actually ment something. A rogue/warrior/whatever could gear themselves to survive the AEs from mobs.

In wow its different. you are gonna suck that dmg regardless of what you are wearing.



The only argument that pisses me off is the one that says "well rogues are good at pvp so fuck them i pve!!!". news flash. preists are by far as good if not better at pvp than rogues(unless fighting ud of course), yet they are still the number 1 desired class in pve. if you want to use this tactic to defend your point then youb eter sure as fuck either nerf preist healing or nerf their pvp dmg.

[Flinch]

Having experienced the endgame a bit more (killed pretty much everything sans Majordomo & Rag), I can say that Rogues are fine, assuming you get a balanced raid group.

Running Damage Meters, top 5 DD are almost always Rogues, with things leveling out a bit for Onyxia runs.

I'd much rather see increased utility for Rogues. We have stuns and poisons, yet nearly all mobs are immune to the former, while we can only use one type of poison (instant) against the latter.

Having a 'Mend' type of ability is probably the last thing I want to see happen to my class.

[Metranon]

news flash. preists are by far as good if not better at pvp than rogues(unless fighting ud of course), yet they are still the number 1 desired class in pve.

holy spec priests are not all that hot in PvP, 1v1. if you're talking about a full shadow spec priest, sure they are a beast 1v1. But a restoration spec druid far out-heals a shadow priest. Holy priests are quite strong in group PvP, but for the same reason theyre valuable in instances: they heal/shield good and they can rez. Holy priests offensive abilities are not all that strong though, which in group PvP means theyr're only as powerful as the melees backing them up

if youre about to bring up duels, please reconsider, because dueling in front of IF or Ogrimmar is a long shot from PvP in the field

finally as sean has pointed out, rogues do THE MOST damage in high end instances, more than mages or hunters

as a previous poster asked, Do i know what balance is? I'm willing to admit that maybe I don't, since there seem to be so many whiny rogues out there, they must be upset about something elgitimate, surely!

so tell me, what is it thats's so imbalanced about the rogue in its current form? and PvP is a factor in overall balance.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Taking PvP balance into consideration with PvE balance is dangerous and offensive to every PvE player on earth. Having to balance the two at the same time is a fucking pain and necessary, but you don't ever say 'Class A is balanced because they're iffy at PvE but pwn at PvP,' at least if you want to retain large chunks of your playerbase -- it is even more dangerous when you consider that PvE content is still required for PvP players.

[Zinke]

Originally posted by Sean
Rogues are useful in MC, please die for saying otherwise.

Despite our Rogues not meleeing any Destroyers, Shazz, and most of Golemagg and Baron, a Rogue was our number 1 damage dealer for our last MC run (Entrance to Golemagg)

#1 - Uzabiji, 1.31 Million damage
#2 - Sean, 1.26 Million damage.

Ok, yea. Sure. So what your saying is, if you had replaced your rogues with hunters, it would have made Shazz, Golemagg and Baron easier, and the other encounters slightly harder?

If a hunter can come that close to a rogue's dps, then I doubt you'll be losing those other encounters that the rogues actually participate in, and you'd have an easier time on the ones that they sit out.

Is there any other class that you basically say 'ok, just sit there this fight, your more use to us AFK.' ?

[DelheruRN]

And for a moment I thought people here wouldn't be as fucking stupid as on the worldofwarcraft forums.

Our rogues outdamage mages and hunters on damn near everything. Shit it was a close call at GOLEMAGG last time. If your rogues don't know how to do 50k+ against him they fucking suck. I think our highest damage dealer to Golemagg last time was a rogue (though this got the group shaman swearing a bit, he wasn't being as careful as he should have been).

Shazzrah is the only exception where rogues are useless. Even destroyers are sorta ok nowadays.

Rogue is probably the class LEAST in need of an upgrade at this time (ok warrior is up there too).

Debuff spot fix might make things fine for mage/warlock, leaving only hunter as a bit gimpy class. Perhaps the new weapons fill fix this.

[DelheruRN]

Originally posted by Zinke
Is there any other class that you basically say 'ok, just sit there this fight, your more use to us AFK.' ?

All but 1 warrior at shazzrah?

That's it really. Melee is gimped at one encounter, with the exception of the MT. I don't see how this somehow makes rogues useless.

[Metranon]

If a hunter can come that close to a rogue's dps, then I doubt you'll be losing those other encounters that the rogues actually participate in, and you'd have an easier time on the ones that they sit out.

the fact that the rogues sat out on some mobs, and yet still managed to come out ahead overall, suggests that their DPS is quite a lot higher than a hunter's, not just slightly higher.

Taking PvP balance into consideration with PvE balance is dangerous and offensive to every PvE player on earth. Having to balance the two at the same time is a fucking pain and necessary

clearly a gross deficiency is either PvE or PvP isn't good for any class. But i don't think being slightly better at one or the other is a bad idea for some classes, it's a necessary evil. If you try to make every class perfectly balanced for PvE and also for 1v1 PvP, you risk taking away from what makes each class unique.

in the case of the rogue, what makes them unique is their incredible solo power. Go try to solo a warrior to 60 or a druid, then compare it to a rogue. Rogues are very strong in solo PvE as well as solo or small group PvP.

Is there any other class that you basically say 'ok, just sit there this fight, your more use to us AFK.' ?

its worth noting that rogues don't actually sit out AFK during Shazz, Golemagg, and Geddon. They can run in and out of the fight and use first aid, etc do deal some damage. thats 3 encounters in the whole game they aren't doing the most DPS of any class. I don't think 3 encounters in the entire game warrant a change to class balance.

[Itzlegend]

If your rogues aren't putting out insane damage, then you don't know how to use them.

Either your raid leader sucks, or your rogues suck. But I assure you, it isn't the class.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

That there is no way to use rogues in MC in quantity, despite my use of the word "useless." The point is that there are enough encounters in which their DPS is gimped that you could mostly replace them with hunters and have a lot easier time. At the expense of DPS verses some mobs? Obviously, or they wouldn't have such high raid total damage.