PVP Rewards.

[Mkopec1]

Originally posted by Fammaden

I thought most people did PvP by choice and because they find it to be more fun and a greater challenge? I could be a real dick and say that you should want to PvP even for no rewards because it is what you supposedly like to do. I realize that would be shortsighted and naive. But what types of rewards would make you happy?

Actually, before they started to release info about the PvP rewards, I honestly thought it was going to be sort of like LDON points and rewards were in EQ. Nice items, but at the cost of many, many hours of playing and grinding.

But what would make me happy as a reward? Simply to loot the coin off the dead, or one item from their inventory. This would be reward enough for me. But we all know this type of PvP reward is never going to exist in WoW.

PvP is a challenge and it is a reward of its own like you stated. But honestly without a "purpose" behind it, it gets old real quick. You are not changing anything by your actions.

I could tell you the same thing. Why do you need fat lewtz to raid MC? Shouldnt you do it because its fun? /shrug

[Lenaldo]

Why isnt the reward for killing onxyia a good ol' pat on the back? Sure, you may attempt highend raids for a bit but after you have done them all what is the one thing that keeps you going? Some sort of reward - gear.

Why is it not the same for pvp? Okay. make there be no pvp reward, but let me loot the person i kill. Now you will bitch because all your phattys just got ganked by someone who owned you in pvp.

[Fammaden]

I would still want to see the end game even if it meant no loot. I might not want to do it every damn week until I drove the encounter into the ground but I would still have the drive to beat the encounter. Just like people are driven to beat Super Mario World or get the high score on Ms. Pac-Man, just for the sake of winning. I want to see the encounters and beat them for fun. I farm them for gear. PvP might be fun 3 hours a week in TM for the average Joe, but if they want to farm gear as a result of PvP make them spend 30+ hours a week doing it.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Sorry guys, but as is often the case (including when he's shooting me down) Famm is right. Now, you could go back to the raiding argument and on the point of, what good will the honor system do when raid gear goes up a couple of notches? Remember that the quartermaster is only part of the picture, and you have to consider that Battlegrounds(tm) are still inc. That is where your uber hot loot is going to be, and honestly, it should be, not from having some high-octane wankfest of outdoor gankage. If they didn't make PvP gear from BGs progress (in its own way) the way raid gear will, then you have a problem. If it makes you feel any better, BGs aren't implemented at all yet, but PvE players have no access to overwhelming raid gear yet either.

As long as they keep the honor system tied into the way battlegrounds works, which they have outlined ways in which they do, it is a flawed but still pretty decent system. If only they could manage to implement a system that eliminated the 'need to PvE to PvP' system that exists everywhere, they'd have an amazing winner, even though I personally still wouldn't care. The idea that you should have to put in less persistent work to keep geared as a PvPer than a PvEer though, is flawed. I don't like the idea of a person losing ten ranks because they had a Real Life for a month or two, because that breeds bad sociological issues that all MMO devs should be cognizant of when designing, so there should definitely be a limit on your rank rot.

[Duppin]

Can't we go back to the good ol' days of looking down on PvPers and despising anyone who plays on a Zek?

Okay, that's a little harsh, but it's clear that PvP is going to be the "real" endgame of WoW, and I wonder how many people other than me will end up leaving WoW because they don't want to have to settle for whatever PvE content gets made with the leftover time after making PvP toys.

And don't spout off a list of 'PvE content in development' unless you can give dates when they're gonna be ingame.

And yes, I suck at PvP and that's part of why I dislike it, but certainly not all of it.

[Kaxmax]

I'd say you picked the wrong game, unfortunately. As it is, the PVP'ers are in the majority by ~300k, according to Warcraftrealms.com. That's not even counting the people like myself, who love PVP but play on a PVE server due to friends/guildmates going there. EQ2 seems to be the game with the long PVE grind/reward system.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

I don't think that's true at all, but obviously the PvE content has been slow in coming. Sometimes when I look at the old updates from the premiere raid guilds I'm still taken aback by the dates -- these guys had everything except Ragnaros in farm status two months ago, and on Hyjal, FoH has had almost a lock on Kazzak and Azure since they first appeared.

We can go back to 'things they said' but obviously many of those are fairly meaningless at this point, but if you look at what is in development, there is quite a bit I think we can expect to see before the expansion. A lot of us would like to know where the manpower is being focused right now -- is there an expansion team that consists of more than a "1.10" size crew right now? If so, is it bigger than the live team? Did Furor finally get promoted out of quest bitch and start giving Tigole a much-needed hand? I don't want that taken the wrong way, I think he's doing a fine job but I simply don't see how a person could crank out enough of this shit and do a quality job of it being the only guy with a heavy hand at the rudder. And if you don't think WoW's raid content is quality, you can always compare it to its similarly aged sister and tell me MC doesn't sound better than what they're describing on the other end.

Anyway, no one can give dates for anything right now, obviously, including BGs. My guess is that BL will go in the same time as the first BG, I think that would be fair and raise the least ire from both camps. Also our Rogues need something to do during raid hours

[Duppin]

Originally posted by Kaxmax
I'd say you picked the wrong game, unfortunately. As it is, the PVP'ers are in the majority by ~300k, according to Warcraftrealms.com. That's not even counting the people like myself, who love PVP but play on a PVE server due to friends/guildmates going there. EQ2 seems to be the game with the long PVE grind/reward system.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I fully understand that WoW probably isn't going to be the right game for me; the problem is, I'm pretty much stuck with it at the moment because EQ2 needs a fucking Cray to run smoothly on (then again, Cray may suck now, I don't know) and there really isn't much else out there.

So, once something new and shiny comes along, I'll be gone; but I'm distressed that the trend seems to be that all new MMORPGs are going to either heavily emphasize PvP, or basically force you into it.

I'm all for the PvP people being able to have some fun; but it should be optional, and if you make it the focus of your game, you have to accept that a lot of veteran MMORPGers don't care about PvP and you'll lose them while gaining bnet kiddies/counterstrike rejects (note: I don't think all PvPers are one or the other of those, but some certainly are)

[Mkopec1]

Dupe-

I was in your boat untill I tried some PvP games. Notibly AO which had a semi pvp flare and Shadowbane which was all out free for all PvP.

The PvP in wow is astually pretty good. the death penalty is nill when PvP ing so there is really no worry.

I started WoW on a non pvp server and it just felt like the game was missing something, notibly challenge. I could not stand going into contested zones and /waving at the enemy. It was just wrong.

I rerolled on a PvP server and im having a blast.
It just opens up options for you that you really dont have on a PvE server.

And let me tell you the rush from engaging in a PvP fight is unmatched so far. Your adrenaline starts flowing, your heart rate increases....

I think that PvP IS the future of on line games personally. Its self made content which is ever changing. something that PvE will never match.

Now dont get me wrong, I enjoy PvE also, but throw in some PvP action on top of that, and you have yourself a game.

And just like yourself everyone sucked when PvP ing in the beginning. But just like everything in life the more you do it the better you become.

Dont fear PvP man. accept it for what it is. Dont take it personal and remember when you loose a fight what do you actually loose? Nothing, you just gained a little more experience so that maybe next time you will be better.

[Duppin]

At the risk of hijacking this thread into another PvP debate, which wasn't really what I wanted to do:

I've tried PvP in the past. I've played AO, SB, DAoC, even a little bit of EQ's shambles of a PvP system.

It's just not something that I enjoy, and me not being good at it isn't really a very large part of the reason that I don't like it; it's more to do with the fact that I think that MMORPGs are very difficult to have PvP be fair and balanced in (god, I hope Fox News doesn't sue me now), and that I think that the PvE in games suffers when you start trying to make PvP an integral part of the game.

Plus, if I want to kill other players, I usually load up Tribes (I know I know, it's old and looks like crap by today's standards, but man is it still fun).

I just think that PvP in MMORPGs is trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[Fammaden]

Originally posted by FoghornDeadhorn
I don't like the idea of a person losing ten ranks because they had a Real Life for a month or two, because that breeds bad sociological issues that all MMO devs should be cognizant of when designing, so there should definitely be a limit on your rank rot

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. This is supposed to be a casual friendly game after all, even though there are bones thrown to the more hardcore. The rot rate should be slow enough to allow for real life circumstances without losing your investment each time they tally the numbers. Maybe a rank or two lost per idle month would suffice? I don't know, I haven't seen any of this in action on test and I'm sure it will be tweaked even after it gets patched in. I still contend that you shouldn't get to wear the ranked gear without having to maintain the rank though.

[Itzena]

The way I see it is that it's only the high ranks that, logically, should have fast rates of decay (because of the curve of the ranking system: lots of low ranks, less middle ranked, few high ranked so the ranking 'bands' must be - by definition - broad at the bottom and (very) narrow at the top)...and if you've got to one of the high ranks, you're pvping most of the time anyway.

If RL does intervene, it's the people who were top ranked who'd probably relish the attempt to climb back up.

[ChewieTobbacca]

On the part of gear:

As a mage I realize that the int it gives isn't particularly the greatest and same for spirit as well - the hp is nice but its going to be kinda useless when you run OOM and can't kill the other guy since everyone will be waring a ton of +sta gear from these rewards

A melee cant go oom tho!

[Tuco]

Heh, if they have a 10-20 of the top 3 ranks per faction per server, they should make the gear insanely good. Like 200DPS weapons and thousands more health, hero class shmero class!

[Metranon]

don't like the idea of a person losing ten ranks because they had a Real Life for a month or two, because that breeds bad sociological issues that all MMO devs should be cognizant of when designing, so there should definitely be a limit on your rank rot

even if there wasn't a decay system incorporated into the honor rankings, you would still lose rank for not logging in for months at a time, simply because while you were gone other people will likely rank up more honorable kills than you

The small-group instance gear is good enough for the casual player. Full valor and an arcanite reaper (or equivalent) is attainable for even the most casual player over a long period of time, and will still stand up to the purple set PvP rewards well enough that you can make a decent showing for yourself in PvP, if not win a 1v1 (you shouldn't be able to anyway against a more committed player...)

i don't think the rank 10+ rewards were really meant for the casual player to earn. And as a previous posted noted, if youre really hardcore and need to take a break for a couple months because you get a new job or something, you should be up to the challenge when you get back.