What kind of skill trees would you like to see implemented for classes?

[DisgruntledOrangatang]

Scenario:

You are playing an MMO which has 5 base classes and through skill tree paths you select how the class specializes. To advance in your skill tree you pick either choice A or B or C (or none if there is no choices to make at that point in the tree). Once you have chosen this choice the 'node' on the tree becomes selected with an exp meter below it. Then completing objectives/quests, killing mobs, and discovering areas (or any other thing you would want to advance the character) would fill this bar. Once it is filled you learn the selected skill/gain the selected stat/etc (or you are now enabled to learn it but must complete some quests to gain it) and your then move down a tier to the next set of choices (or just next level.)

Using this scenario system what are some skill trees you would like to see, or a certain ability in a tree for a class.

Example:

A tank base type class could have 3 ways to go:

A tank who can take a lot of hits because they have either high hp and/or high damage reduction.

Or A tank who has less hp and/or armor, but higher dodge, able to hit more.

Then depending on your strats, the type of mob, how fast/hard the mob hits, ZOC positioning (to see ZOC explained check out fattyfats post here. ) you may need either of these tanks to be optimal.

Lastly you could have a utility enchancer type tank. This tank would have high survivability (via HP/resist/whatever). But his tanking abilitiy (beause of low armor/whatever) wouldn't be as good as the other types. However, through class specific abilities and whatnot he could enhance the tanking abilitiy in multiple ways of the other tanks as long as he stays alive, but he could only have a few up at a time (think WoW warlock imp pet spell blood pact meets Paladin auras/seals/blessings meets EQ Bards minus carpal tunnel). Another more literal example would be a leader of his division (the tanks). With this leader there the other people in his 'squad' can do their jobs more effectively with this archtype's prescense.


The 5 base classes would be:

Tank
DPS (ranged DPS falls into this category)
Healer
Caster (either damage or support)
Architect (don't worry about this one)

[Snagglepuss]

I think it's a pretty interesting idea. you wouldnt pick a class at character selection. everyone melees for 5 levels, and then it branches off from there. every couple of levels, you branch off a bit more.

wait a second, isnt this what eq2 does

[DisgruntledOrangatang]

Is this EXACLTY how the EQ 2 system works? I thought it was purely level based? Please explain how it works or gimme a link that does.


**Edit: I just read up on how they work and it does seem to be the same, however it says each archtype can do the base class's job effectively just differently. What I am wondering is can the archtype do the job as effectively as another archtype in the raid game on certain encounters? Would you pefer a berserker to tank in a certain encounter and a guardian in another?

And ok...you took my example and said it is like EQ2s system, what I asked is what you would want implement as skill trees, this could be by same method I used (separating ways to take/avoid damage) or something totally different. I know my ideas I want to know yours.**

[Kolle]

It's basically EQ2.


You start out as a fighter, scout, mage, or priest.


Then at lvl 10 if you're a mage you can go enchanter, sorcerer, or summoner.

Then at lvl 10 if you're a sorcerer you can go wizard or warlock.



They each have their strengths and weak points that their counterpart might have the opposite of. For example wizard is fire and ice while warlock is poison and disease.




But honestly I'd rather see this Tank/DPS/Healer design get trashed. I'd like to see a nice mmorpg that does something new and different while being more fun and entertaining.

The only reason so many gamers think you Need to have tanks, dps, and healers is because that's all anyone is making with their game.

[Cadrid]

They need to fix the utter bullshit some class trees have (Protection tree, anyone?) before they implement new trees.

I'm thinking, though, that having Hero classes be further specialization would be cool. For example, a rogue could be a Rake, Assassin, or Thief, and each title would give different bonuses/skills. To advance in the trees would take long, intricate quests that test your skills depending upon which Hero class you were pursuing. (e.g. a rogue looking to be an assassin must sneak into a place, kill an NPC, and sneak out without getting caught. Scripted events that have an AoE reveal or alarms would make it more than a simple "in and out" thing. Of course, it would be instanced.)

I hope that made sense. I'm a bit on the tipsy side.

[Snagglepuss]

I haven't played EQ2, but I think one of the differences between EQ2's system and the one proposed by orangutan is class differentiation. Like, in his system, things would get dramatically different pretty quickly. Maybe EQ2's different choices are all pretty similar. Don't know, never played it.

[DisgruntledOrangatang]

Originally posted by Kolle
It's basically EQ2.


You start out as a fighter, scout, mage, or priest.


Then at lvl 10 if you're a mage you can go enchanter, sorcerer, or summoner.

Then at lvl 10 if you're a sorcerer you can go wizard or warlock.



They each have their strengths and weak points that their counterpart might have the opposite of. For example wizard is fire and ice while warlock is poison and disease.




But honestly I'd rather see this Tank/DPS/Healer design get trashed. I'd like to see a nice mmorpg that does something new and different while being more fun and entertaining.

The only reason so many gamers think you Need to have tanks, dps, and healers is because that's all anyone is making with their game.

Hey Kolle if you can think of a new design that would work and be fun, I am all ears. I just look at it from a simplistic matter. You HAVE to have combat in an MMO, without it...well just wtf then. Now you have varying types of combat, you could do it so it's based around never getting hit or making getting hit very costly...this isn't an MMO though. You could have completely turned based combat, then it's just an online RPG. Really what other ways can you go about varying the 'MMO combat' scene? I don't think the bread and butter bases really need their wheel to be reinvented they just need to be implemented in more creative ways. Also adding more to combat than just player vs mob, and adding siginificant things to do when out of combat (besides tradeskilling) are all tweakable things that would make an MMO fun.

So if you got any great ideas about a new innovative way to implement stuff I definately listen, but once again I don't think the bread and butter is where design flaws for failure in funfactor are, I just think we need to pop that shit in the fryer instead of serving it cold.

[DisgruntledOrangatang]

Originally posted by Cadrid
They need to fix the utter bullshit some class trees have (Protection tree, anyone?) before they implement new trees.

I'm thinking, though, that having Hero classes be further specialization would be cool. For example, a rogue could be a Rake, Assassin, or Thief, and each title would give different bonuses/skills. To advance in the trees would take long, intricate quests that test your skills depending upon which Hero class you were pursuing. (e.g. a rogue looking to be an assassin must sneak into a place, kill an NPC, and sneak out without getting caught. Scripted events that have an AoE reveal or alarms would make it more than a simple "in and out" thing. Of course, it would be instanced.)

I hope that made sense. I'm a bit on the tipsy side.

I didn't mean in WoW specifically, just if you could make up anything you wanted, how would you group it and what would it include?

[Snagglepuss]

I liked braen's idea about basically having set classes but differentiating minor abilities through race/deity.

this way, when you see a cleric, you know that they're gonna be able to heal you. but you see dark elf, and you think "they could either have a little extra damage (innoruuk) or heal for a little more (i dunno? lanys?)."

that takes care of both the "how can I tell what specialization that person is" question and the class differentiation question.

owned!

[DisgruntledOrangatang]

Having diety/race tabs are also good. However, these abilties shouldn't be combat related or only VERY minorly. Otherwise you pigeon-hole specific race/class/diety combos when it comes to min-maxing and raiding. If you pick a base class of a healer this means you want to and are ready to heal, this being your main and best function means that on a raid you will be doing this function, so why would anyone want to pick inny the damage-increase as a priest when they can just upp their heals via lanys. Players will always try to min-max no matter what which is why I think diety/race skill trees should be non combat related or mostly all of it.

A scenario would be something like a large race being innately large can jump higher than other races so they can get over shit other races cannot to unlock new areas of a zone. Then maybe being a small race you could get a modifier to agility stats so when you train a +10 agi node you actually get +12. This is kinda almost crossing the line because if would effect combat and once again do the old pigeon-hole. The tradeoff for being a large race would have to hold equal weight, such as ok he won't get as much agi as the small race if he chooses the dodging warrior path but because of his big ZOC he will be able to survive the best with mutliple trash (weak) mobs beating on him at once.

Then the diety tab could be lifestyle related like how your mount would look..no clue other than that what could be lifestyle related, maybe also tweak to character appearance? Dieties could also offer certain out of combat bonuses like increased health regen or whatever, ( A lot like wow passive racial abilities now)

It could really get interesting then when you get to the bottom of all 3 tabs of race/class/diety and then depending on your combination and which archtype you chose in the class tab you would have specific things only to that 3 combo. For instance a large raced mage who specced in fire damage , has a point blank powerful AE fire spell. Because he is a large race the range is slightly increased. Or you could have the tabs fuse at the bottom and have an option to learn such a spell. Then possibly at the bottom of dieties you could have 1 miracle that you can perform and the miracle is based off your class specialization and race combination. Casting this miracle could use up favor with your diety (someone suggested this in the MMO idea thread) which you can then increase through diety quests/killing mobs your diety hates.

[Snagglepuss]

Otherwise you pigeon-hole specific race/class/diety combos when it comes to min-maxing and raiding.

I don't think so. Ogre warriors were easily the best warriors, but in the end game of EQ there were TONS of non-ogres. in fact, ogres were probably a minority.

I think people will initially and frequently pick the race they favor because they enjoy playing that race. Humans had sucky int, but there were plenty of human wiz/enc/nec/mag. same can be said of other class/races. now some were extremely rare, like eru/pal. erudites made sucky paladins, but you could give them really interesting specialities.

basically, more differentiation is good. yes, it adds balance issues, but if you plan ahead and use quantitative techniques rather than qualitative, you can make it work.

[Cadrid]

Originally posted by DisgruntledOrangatang
I didn't mean in WoW specifically, just if you could make up anything you wanted, how would you group it and what would it include?

Oh. Well, my creative juices aren't flowing at 5:20 in the morning, but I can say that I don't want to see hybridizing. Talents that allow you to play more than one role, fine, but I never want to see an EQ Ranger, Paladin, or Shadow Knight again.

[The Bog]

I want someone to do a dedicated SK class. Something actually powerful and individual. Nobody's done that before.

[Snagglepuss]

wtf is a 'powerful' class
arent they all supposed to be equal

[Rune]

Originally posted by DisgruntledOrangatang
but once again I don't think the bread and butter is where design flaws for failure in funfactor are, I just think we need to pop that shit in the fryer instead of serving it cold.

^^WTF

MMORPG design from a McDonald's fryer operator near you.