cqcure and other bullshit mods. - Page 3

Scaffa · 03-16-2005, 12:50 AM

Happened with with ShowEQ and PvP in EQ as well. You had to wall bug yourself every time you zoned if you didn't want to show everyone exactly where you were.

Kodylan · 03-16-2005, 03:45 AM

OMG BUT RAIDBAR REMOVES THE NEED TO LOOK FOR THE PERSON AND CLICK ON THEM OR USE A SLASH COMMAND TO TARGET!!!!!! Nerf it I say!

Fulorian · 03-16-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

OMG BUT RAIDBAR REMOVES THE NEED TO LOOK FOR THE PERSON AND CLICK ON THEM OR USE A SLASH COMMAND TO TARGET!!!!!! Nerf it I say!

Have you no insight at all? They're intelligently discussing the possible problems, based on previous history of the way games have been BUILT around increased automation, and all you can do is mock them, on the basis of 'OMG ROFFLEZ IT SAVES A BUTTON CLIK END OF TEH WORLDZ'.

Yes, I realize your post doesn't directly mock those against CQ mods, but its there. You blindly defend anything related to CQ or your systems, without thinking of the consequences. The raidbar is not automation of any process, it is simply more information for the player, essentially a more concise UI. Nothing automated about it.

A button click here, 20 there, full automation everywhere. The line has to be drawn, or else the game will be balanced against computers with perfect reflexes, sucking the enjoyment out of it. Just look at Counterstrike. A rather extreme example, but it holds, nonetheless. When the only way to win is to let the computer play, what fun is there left?

Dahlrek · 03-16-2005, 12:15 PM

At what point do you stop being a WoW player, and start being nothing more than the source of movement for a WoWBot?

Fail a raid? Don't get better, just have your script engineer update everyone's scripts with tighter timing and a slightly modified cast sequence.

Why don't you have the MT's scripts calculate track his HP, the DPS of the enemies and their hit timers, and send a text message to the appropriate priest (scripts to keep track of the raid priests recast timers based on their cast message or scripted messages to you). Set it up to start a heal before the next hit is likely, and a message to cancel that heal if the hit doesn't land? The priests's responses are all scripted too, so they don't need to think about it either.

Sure, maybe all actual responses have to be resolved with a keypress of one key instantly remapped by the script system to "do the right thing". Big fucking deal. Get a 3rd party macro program, a programmable autofire keyboard or gamepad, or any other solution to "OMG I actually have to hit a key to do something".

Rats can be trained to pull a level given some stimulus. What differentiates you from a rat with a one-key keyboard, a character on autofollow and a good script?

Obviously, anyone can emulate this behavior using a 3rd party system that can track a log file for text triggers or map the game's memory space. But I don't see other games bundling a fully integrated scripting system into their UI so the average joe can easily get and use the scripts.

I can't wait for a raid guild's website to get updated with UI mod packages to automate all key roles for particular raids. Congrats, Timmy, you just downloaded and installed RagnarosMT_UI.zip!

Yes, it's a giant slippery slope argument. It doesn't have to reach that point. But where the fuck is the limit? Where is the line drawn between useful UI tweaks to improve the interface and scipts that make the computer play the fucking game for you. It's horseshit. A UI mod to autocancel a heal when the target is full health? Are you shitting me? That's not a UI mod. That's you not actually playing the game. Are you sure you're playing World of Warcraft, and not World of ProgressQuest?

FooBar · 03-16-2005, 12:22 PM

Sounds like the old arguement between manual stick shift and automatic drive.

Desx · 03-17-2005, 04:28 PM

not really.. the people who take pride in racing, use stickshift. I would figure the people in WoW who think they are actually "badass" wouldn't use scripts.

Itzlegend · 03-17-2005, 04:59 PM

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll take it out.

And then you'll all be bitching about healing rotations come blackwing lair. If you thought healing rotations were annoying in EQ, wait until another 6 months of WoW. The only thing more annoying then a healer rotation is a "healer group" rotation.

Really a heal that hits a full health tank shouldn't cost any mana in my opinion, or at least be greatly reduced. Healers have plenty going on allready without having to constantly monitor a chat channel for yet another critical element of gameplay. Why don't we just make it so the fireball dot makes mobs immune to fireball, and the snare effect from the frostbolt makes them immune to frost bolt? Then mages can rotate nukes too, im sure that would be fun.

Disabling cqcure and cqmc isn't going to hurt Conquest. We've been gaming together for years, are always on ventrillo to coordinate, etc. We were clearing MC just fine before the addons - it's just considerably more enjoyable with them.

The people it's really going to hurt are the lower tier / casual player guilds who are going to get frustrated with the headaches and complexities of raiding.

Iannis · 03-17-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevergone
Eliminate the health and mana bars in group windows. The only thing the window should display is a group member's name.

that sounds just crazy enough to have been something Warhammer Online would've tried. They were going to tie mana to the landscape and not the character, after all...

Kodylan · 03-17-2005, 05:37 PM

Fulorian, it's really no different. Don't kid yourself. Raidbar and the cqcure mod both use World of Warcraft scripting that the developers put in for addons since there's nothing in the default UI that provides what they do. If they dislike an addon and what it accomplishes, they'll simply disable the script like they did with target distance, and are doing with hidden levels.

There's a LOT that's very automated within the game - why would this be any different? Self casting? You don't have a problem with that? It removes an element of needing to target yourself in advance. Tradeskill queues? It removes the element of having to click a button every time you attempt an item.

FooBar · 03-17-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

not really.. the people who take pride in racing, use stickshift. I would figure the people in WoW who think they are actually "badass" wouldn't use scripts.

Exactly the point. People used to think it wasn't driving if you used automatic. Might be a little before your time.

Northerner · 03-18-2005, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FooBar
Exactly the point. People used to think it wasn't driving if you used automatic. Might be a little before your time.

Sure, and some still do. The ones that do so even faced with the fact that a computer can clutch 99.989% of the time better than you can, tend to lose.

I'm not saying that WoW should allow these mods but I do applaud those who made them and use them to make raids smooth. If you think they are cheap, raid without them of course. I personally use the heal-abort on my shaman as I do nothing than spot heal and it does stretch my mana. Even with a non-standard 'duck' key, I still blow heals when I am trying to keep a caster at full health at all times instead of floating a tank at 40-75%.

Again, they probably will kill this functionality soon. Until then though, sure I'll use it.

Fammaden · 03-18-2005, 06:34 AM

Incidentally, anyone who doesn't know how to drive stick is not a man.

I agree though that CQMC style interruption should be standard on heals, at least if the target is full. It would be nice if you could top people off for partial mana cost as well but I don't expect that anytime soon. Heal spells landing on full HP targets is just stupid. Imagine if nukes could land and cost full mana on a target that just died. Would you consider that a challenge to be tactically overcome, or an insipid oversight in design?

beepbeepbeep · 03-30-2005, 10:44 AM

Thread resurrection.

The ability of cast cancel allows players to sit and spam a heal without any cost to themselves.

Videos of paladins vs Onyxia show them just pressing flash of light over and over and over, literally cancelling 90% of their casts, because they are *all* doing it to the main tank. This gives them a huge efficiency with their mana without even the slightest bit of skill or coordination among healers. Hey you can target the tank and press the number 3 repeatedly, sounds like a game!

The penalty for mindlessly spamming heals on a full health target should be a loss of mana. Do I get to cancel my mortal strike if it is going to "miss"? Does a mage that screws up a blizzard targetting get to cancel and retarget it for free?

People should avoid stupid mistakes and inefficiency through their own skill, not a program playing for you.

I don't have a problem with raid bars however since that is merely supplying you with information about raid members, not playing for you.

FuckYou · 03-30-2005, 10:46 AM

ducking heals in process is not new tho - we did it in EQ1 every day. at least i think you are talking about ducking heals.

Dynalisia · 03-30-2005, 11:19 AM

You know Itzlegend, people would be far more willing to accept all the gay ass shit you guys pull if you would just come forward sometime and say "Hey yeah, we don't care about anything, just about getting stuff dead and we'll go to any length to get it over with".

The keyword in this whole discussion is time. Why would a bot outperform a person? Because he can do it faster and more accurate, therefor reducing the need for any correction which also cost more time. Don't you understand that as soon as you start taking jobs away from people and giving them to automated processes, you are trivializing stuff simply be enabling the person to use his time for other matters?
What makes a newbie diffirent from a veteran in the first place? A veteran knows his job well and can often respond speedily and accurate in situations that demand it, enabling said person to take more actions in the same space of time as a newbie.

A side effect of it all is that what now seems like the removal of tedious or repetitive things will eventually bore people even more, for staring at a screen hitting a buffing script every 10 seconds for 30 minutes is worse than sitting behind a screen buffing people for 30 minutes in my opinion.

"But with scriptX I can watch TV while my character does what needs to be done", oh right, why are YOU playing this GAME again?

03-17-2005, 04:28 PM	#36 (permalink)
Desx Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 266 -7 Internets	not really.. the people who take pride in racing, use stickshift. I would figure the people in WoW who think they are actually "badass" wouldn't use scripts. __________________ - Des

03-18-2005, 06:34 AM	#42 (permalink)
Fammaden Treats objects like women. Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Posts: 2,496 +3 Internets	Incidentally, anyone who doesn't know how to drive stick is not a man. I agree though that CQMC style interruption should be standard on heals, at least if the target is full. It would be nice if you could top people off for partial mana cost as well but I don't expect that anytime soon. Heal spells landing on full HP targets is just stupid. Imagine if nukes could land and cost full mana on a target that just died. Would you consider that a challenge to be tactically overcome, or an insipid oversight in design? __________________ Fammaden - Wizard - Saryrn (Retired) WoW: Shaman/Mage/Hunter/Paladin

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03-16-2005, 12:50 AM	#31 (permalink)
Scaffa Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 524	Happened with with ShowEQ and PvP in EQ as well. You had to wall bug yourself every time you zoned if you didn't want to show everyone exactly where you were.

03-16-2005, 03:45 AM	#32 (permalink)
Kodylan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,012 +2 Internets	OMG BUT RAIDBAR REMOVES THE NEED TO LOOK FOR THE PERSON AND CLICK ON THEM OR USE A SLASH COMMAND TO TARGET!!!!!! Nerf it I say!

03-16-2005, 12:15 PM	#34 (permalink)
Dahlrek Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 153 -1 Internets	At what point do you stop being a WoW player, and start being nothing more than the source of movement for a WoWBot? Fail a raid? Don't get better, just have your script engineer update everyone's scripts with tighter timing and a slightly modified cast sequence. Why don't you have the MT's scripts calculate track his HP, the DPS of the enemies and their hit timers, and send a text message to the appropriate priest (scripts to keep track of the raid priests recast timers based on their cast message or scripted messages to you). Set it up to start a heal before the next hit is likely, and a message to cancel that heal if the hit doesn't land? The priests's responses are all scripted too, so they don't need to think about it either. Sure, maybe all actual responses have to be resolved with a keypress of one key instantly remapped by the script system to "do the right thing". Big fucking deal. Get a 3rd party macro program, a programmable autofire keyboard or gamepad, or any other solution to "OMG I actually have to hit a key to do something". Rats can be trained to pull a level given some stimulus. What differentiates you from a rat with a one-key keyboard, a character on autofollow and a good script? Obviously, anyone can emulate this behavior using a 3rd party system that can track a log file for text triggers or map the game's memory space. But I don't see other games bundling a fully integrated scripting system into their UI so the average joe can easily get and use the scripts. I can't wait for a raid guild's website to get updated with UI mod packages to automate all key roles for particular raids. Congrats, Timmy, you just downloaded and installed RagnarosMT_UI.zip! Yes, it's a giant slippery slope argument. It doesn't have to reach that point. But where the fuck is the limit? Where is the line drawn between useful UI tweaks to improve the interface and scipts that make the computer play the fucking game for you. It's horseshit. A UI mod to autocancel a heal when the target is full health? Are you shitting me? That's not a UI mod. That's you not actually playing the game. Are you sure you're playing World of Warcraft, and not World of ProgressQuest?

03-16-2005, 12:22 PM	#35 (permalink)
FooBar Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129 +0 Internets	Sounds like the old arguement between manual stick shift and automatic drive.

03-17-2005, 04:59 PM	#37 (permalink)
Itzlegend Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 143 +0 Internets	Don't worry, I'm sure they'll take it out. And then you'll all be bitching about healing rotations come blackwing lair. If you thought healing rotations were annoying in EQ, wait until another 6 months of WoW. The only thing more annoying then a healer rotation is a "healer group" rotation. Really a heal that hits a full health tank shouldn't cost any mana in my opinion, or at least be greatly reduced. Healers have plenty going on allready without having to constantly monitor a chat channel for yet another critical element of gameplay. Why don't we just make it so the fireball dot makes mobs immune to fireball, and the snare effect from the frostbolt makes them immune to frost bolt? Then mages can rotate nukes too, im sure that would be fun. Disabling cqcure and cqmc isn't going to hurt Conquest. We've been gaming together for years, are always on ventrillo to coordinate, etc. We were clearing MC just fine before the addons - it's just considerably more enjoyable with them. The people it's really going to hurt are the lower tier / casual player guilds who are going to get frustrated with the headaches and complexities of raiding.

03-17-2005, 05:37 PM	#39 (permalink)
Kodylan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,012 +2 Internets	Fulorian, it's really no different. Don't kid yourself. Raidbar and the cqcure mod both use World of Warcraft scripting that the developers put in for addons since there's nothing in the default UI that provides what they do. If they dislike an addon and what it accomplishes, they'll simply disable the script like they did with target distance, and are doing with hidden levels. There's a LOT that's very automated within the game - why would this be any different? Self casting? You don't have a problem with that? It removes an element of needing to target yourself in advance. Tradeskill queues? It removes the element of having to click a button every time you attempt an item.

03-30-2005, 10:44 AM	#43 (permalink)
beepbeepbeep is an honorable man Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,020 -1 Internets	Thread resurrection. The ability of cast cancel allows players to sit and spam a heal without any cost to themselves. Videos of paladins vs Onyxia show them just pressing flash of light over and over and over, literally cancelling 90% of their casts, because they are all doing it to the main tank. This gives them a huge efficiency with their mana without even the slightest bit of skill or coordination among healers. Hey you can target the tank and press the number 3 repeatedly, sounds like a game! The penalty for mindlessly spamming heals on a full health target should be a loss of mana. Do I get to cancel my mortal strike if it is going to "miss"? Does a mage that screws up a blizzard targetting get to cancel and retarget it for free? People should avoid stupid mistakes and inefficiency through their own skill, not a program playing for you. I don't have a problem with raid bars however since that is merely supplying you with information about raid members, not playing for you.

03-30-2005, 11:19 AM	#45 (permalink)
Dynalisia Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The land of sunshine Posts: 1,472 -3 Internets	You know Itzlegend, people would be far more willing to accept all the gay ass shit you guys pull if you would just come forward sometime and say "Hey yeah, we don't care about anything, just about getting stuff dead and we'll go to any length to get it over with". The keyword in this whole discussion is time. Why would a bot outperform a person? Because he can do it faster and more accurate, therefor reducing the need for any correction which also cost more time. Don't you understand that as soon as you start taking jobs away from people and giving them to automated processes, you are trivializing stuff simply be enabling the person to use his time for other matters? What makes a newbie diffirent from a veteran in the first place? A veteran knows his job well and can often respond speedily and accurate in situations that demand it, enabling said person to take more actions in the same space of time as a newbie. A side effect of it all is that what now seems like the removal of tedious or repetitive things will eventually bore people even more, for staring at a screen hitting a buffing script every 10 seconds for 30 minutes is worse than sitting behind a screen buffing people for 30 minutes in my opinion. "But with scriptX I can watch TV while my character does what needs to be done", oh right, why are YOU playing this GAME again?