Protection Warrior Raid Issues

AntionidesRZ · 03-12-2005, 04:23 PM

First let me state I'm a 60 Warrior in Sinister that is 13/5/33 (Protection Specced) with a Draconian Shield off general.
I've tanked Lucifron & other MC trash as of date.

I find Protection to be nigh worthless in its current implementation for the end game and I'm hoping to have someone perhaps Furor show me the 'err' of my thinking and hopefully show me how Protection is necessary, I'll explain my problems with it.

-With ~240 Str & 40 block shield I mitigate about 50 damage on a succesful block. This is great when soloing but absolutely pathetic against an MC mob, much less a boss such as Lucifron or Onyxia.

-3 talents based around blocking, some with huge flaws. 2nd & 3rd ranks of Imp. Shield block are considered worthless. Shield Discipline is really poor for a 31 point talent

-I've seen no significant difference in my ability to tank as a protection specced warrior over an arms/fury warrior who equips a shield with similar gear.

-Considering the sacrifice of many good offensive abilities in fury and arms, I dont feel protection adequately boosts defensive capabilities, especially considering the sacrifice made with some PVP-useless talents like Imp. Taunt & defiance.

-Other raiding guild tanks who have tanked onyxia & other MC bosses report that all of their tanks are arms/fury and protection makes no difference.

Shouldn't this be changed? With Protection so heavily based around blocking talents, shouldn't block provide some sort of small % to mitigation when it triggers to substantiate its usefulness against high end mobs? Even something like an additional 10-15% would be frickin awesome without overpowering vs lower dmg hits.

Gar · 03-12-2005, 04:40 PM

I think the warrior class is undergoing some major changes in the next 2-3 patches. (yes, in next year it will be finnished with the retarded blizzard patch cycle) The current situation is, that anything else than arms build just isnt worthwhile.

Fury:

* Bloodthirst - This ability was promised to be revamped after the Nurfed video in late beta. Until this gets fixed, there is no point going very deep in Fury tree.

* Enrage - Total shite, you gear your warrior with +DEF just to avoid getting smacked by critical, makes the whole talent utterly useless.

Protection you already mentioned, it dosn't truly give any advancedment in tanking heavy hitters or even at instance runs that would overbalance the fun that mortal strike brings.

When next patch is in, protection will be even more silly with improved sunder armor beign nerfed just to have lower rage cost instead of more AC reduce. I bet the AC reduce had some stacking bugs in it and they took the SoE way out of the situation by removing the % improvemnt totally and just smacking some lame rage cost reduce in it.

I hope after they have analyzed how the new patch will overall do to the warrior rage generation, they can modify the protection and fury tree to be something more usefull then they currently are. And finally fix the bloodthirst that has been now "under repair" for 5 months.

31/11/9 or 31/5/15 are the best choises. Depends if you like Piercing Howl over Imp Rev.

Edit. I think what lead to this mess, was the lead designers idea that fights should be "chaotic" in their nature. Recalling from the beta boards he told this just prior to the legendary "awesome warrior changes" post. Well, what he didnt understand is, that ingame only purpose of warrior is to do his job so, that the fight does not lead into chaotic situation.

I remember back when Furor still spoke, he mentioned how much he liked the taunt system that was ingame back then. Hit taunt, your rage converst into certain amount of hate. The system was brilliant, the warrior gameplay was not so fucking stressing and twicth based it currently is and you could ease target each of the 4-5 mobs in a pull and convert some rage into agro on will.

Then came this fucking idea of chaotic battles that lead into every warrior modifying their gameplay into tiring twitchgame to keep the battles "non-chaotic".

They had a winner warrior, the current wow warrior is a pale shadow what it used to be. Bnet kiddies didnt want to be the "taunt bots" they were in beta, hope they are now pleased with their warrior when they finally fucking understand what they should be doign as warriors in an instance or raid. Tough, I always tought that back in late beta Blizzard balanced the game to be pleasing for those who subsricbe for mare month or two and quit at 60 before they even get into the raid game, leaving the longtime players of wow to lick their fingertips. I wonder who they really should have listened..

AntionidesRZ · 03-12-2005, 04:42 PM

Its nice to see that its not just me thanks

robbrown · 03-12-2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gar
I think the warrior class is undergoing some major changes in the next 2-3 patches. (yes, in next year it will be finnished with the retarded blizzard patch cycle) The current situation is, that anything else than arms build just isnt worthwhile.

If by major changes you mean nerfing everything into oblivion, then yeah.

Kaige · 03-12-2005, 09:51 PM

I'm Fury/Prot spec'd through with Flurry/Concussion, and it was alright before. I managed to sneak in some fighting on Test server in-between crashes and before it went down for good. I picked a fight with some of the 60-range mobs in East Plaguelands, banshees and skeleton knights. Seemed like I wasn't missing as much, although I did see the mobs actually getting a block or parry in. Rage seem to generate pretty quickly instead of feeling as if I was starving. I noticed I was seeing more "gain 1 rage" messages as well.

Hopefully I can test it out a little more soon.

ex-genj · 03-12-2005, 10:35 PM

Prot sucks basically.

The long way to say it is if they made prot tank significantly better than non prot then basically all warriors would be forced to go prot or gimp themselves. Of course now prot warriors are gimp in solo and pvp for only a tiny increase in tanking and taunting abilities. The sunder nerf doesn't help either of course. Makes you wonder what's going through the dev's heads. Basically even though I MT MC/ony I see no reason to put any points into prot post patch, so I'll get to kill rogues in 3 hits again.

Ziggurat · 03-13-2005, 01:25 AM

I take last stand, toughness and defiance in prot, and even those aren't REALLY necessary

Tripamang · 03-13-2005, 07:44 AM

Quote:

They had a winner warrior, the current wow warrior is a pale shadow what it used to be. Bnet kiddies didnt want to be the "taunt bots" they were in beta, hope they are now pleased with their warrior when they finally fucking understand what they should be doign as warriors in an instance or raid. Tough, I always tought that back in late beta Blizzard balanced the game to be pleasing for those who subsricbe for mare month or two and quit at 60 before they even get into the raid game, leaving the longtime players of wow to lick their fingertips. I wonder who they really should have listened..

You really can't say that too many times. It was like 1% of the warrior population bitching about taunt and the other 99% properly overjoyed with the class.

Kolle · 03-13-2005, 07:56 AM

I don't think there are too many players who enjoy being a taunt/heal bot.

Would be nice to have each tree function well in all aspects of the game. Like was said, prot has a slight edge in pve, but when it comes to solo and pvp...

I would rather see the prot tree gain ground in pvp and solo than just boost it's pve value. We all know what will happen then. It will be similar to priests/druids where if you want to group/raid you are almost forced to choose a path for your talents.

Frax · 03-13-2005, 08:13 AM

They just need to make shield blocking a % of overall damage instead of a fixed number, so that it scales with mob damage.

AntionidesRZ · 03-13-2005, 09:16 AM

I understand the thing where they're afraid to make Holy Priests & Protection Warriors awesome or else it would be required but personally I dont see a problem with Prot. being the clearly optimal choice for tanking..thats how it should be..lots of warriors in our guild envision a blademaster style warrior and thats what they enjoy..arms/fury with a 2hand..I want to be a shield tank but block just isn't worth a shit right now.

Tripamang · 03-13-2005, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kolle
I don't think there are too many players who enjoy being a taunt/heal bot.

Would be nice to have each tree function well in all aspects of the game. Like was said, prot has a slight edge in pve, but when it comes to solo and pvp...

I would rather see the prot tree gain ground in pvp and solo than just boost it's pve value. We all know what will happen then. It will be similar to priests/druids where if you want to group/raid you are almost forced to choose a path for your talents.

If you were a talented warrior back in the day, taunting was only a small part of what you did.

AngryGerbil · 03-13-2005, 09:51 AM

I've been Prot since day one but the changes to Sunder Armor and Shield Block, when it goes live, will cause me to repsec to Arms. I'm a little worried about losing Imp. Revenge, but that's about it. Block is useless, as is most of the Prot tree.

When these changes go live, I'm not seeing how respeccing to Arms is going to hurt my tanking, mitigation, or aggro holding abilites at all (minus Revenge and the one with more hate per attack...Defiance?)

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll go Arms and be like "Holy shit I'm gimped! I can't hold aggro for shit and mobs go through me like tissue paper!", but I somehow doubt it.

Nakilos · 03-13-2005, 10:03 AM

All their change resulted in was making Sunder Armor what ya spam instead of taunt.

I like the Protection build personally, but as I do raids more often the stuns especially are becoming wastes of points. The gains to your efficicacy as a tank are pretty much the defensive talents and defiance. Everything else falls under "nice to have, but not really awesome". It has very few abilities which are beneficial in all situations, ie the stuns are weak in a real raid setting, shield discipline has 0 use in PVP or soloing settings, compared to the arms build which is fully functional in all settings. I think I'll definately change soon, and go back to arms build by the time the honor system goes live, likely 31/5/15 for the small benefits to tanking.

Daltheb · 03-13-2005, 10:45 AM

Protection Spec is 100% useless. Why? Because I've killed all of MC (minus Majorhomo) and Onyxia as BOTH a 43 prot/8 arms spec and 31 arms/20 fury spec, and can say I have been just as successful in both builds. The result? Protection spec is not only unnecessary, but detrimental if you wish to be able to do more than being slightly more efficient in raid instances. And for the guy who said that Enrage is worthless in some above post, I'm guessing you don't PVP much! Then again, I'm on Archimonde so retaining PVP viability is crucial.

P.S. Sup Nakilos! Nice to see KTF still going strong. I tried 31/5/15 also and basically realized that those 15 points in Prot are better spent in Fury to get Enrage. Those uber crits make a huge difference in PVP! And hey, they even help with threat generation too.

03-12-2005, 04:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
AntionidesRZ Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 27 +0 Internets	Protection Warrior Raid Issues First let me state I'm a 60 Warrior in Sinister that is 13/5/33 (Protection Specced) with a Draconian Shield off general. I've tanked Lucifron & other MC trash as of date. I find Protection to be nigh worthless in its current implementation for the end game and I'm hoping to have someone perhaps Furor show me the 'err' of my thinking and hopefully show me how Protection is necessary, I'll explain my problems with it. -With ~240 Str & 40 block shield I mitigate about 50 damage on a succesful block. This is great when soloing but absolutely pathetic against an MC mob, much less a boss such as Lucifron or Onyxia. -3 talents based around blocking, some with huge flaws. 2nd & 3rd ranks of Imp. Shield block are considered worthless. Shield Discipline is really poor for a 31 point talent -I've seen no significant difference in my ability to tank as a protection specced warrior over an arms/fury warrior who equips a shield with similar gear. -Considering the sacrifice of many good offensive abilities in fury and arms, I dont feel protection adequately boosts defensive capabilities, especially considering the sacrifice made with some PVP-useless talents like Imp. Taunt & defiance. -Other raiding guild tanks who have tanked onyxia & other MC bosses report that all of their tanks are arms/fury and protection makes no difference. Shouldn't this be changed? With Protection so heavily based around blocking talents, shouldn't block provide some sort of small % to mitigation when it triggers to substantiate its usefulness against high end mobs? Even something like an additional 10-15% would be frickin awesome without overpowering vs lower dmg hits.

03-12-2005, 04:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gar euro-bastard, sorry for the typos. :-p Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 256 +0 Internets	I think the warrior class is undergoing some major changes in the next 2-3 patches. (yes, in next year it will be finnished with the retarded blizzard patch cycle) The current situation is, that anything else than arms build just isnt worthwhile. Fury: * Bloodthirst - This ability was promised to be revamped after the Nurfed video in late beta. Until this gets fixed, there is no point going very deep in Fury tree. * Enrage - Total shite, you gear your warrior with +DEF just to avoid getting smacked by critical, makes the whole talent utterly useless. Protection you already mentioned, it dosn't truly give any advancedment in tanking heavy hitters or even at instance runs that would overbalance the fun that mortal strike brings. When next patch is in, protection will be even more silly with improved sunder armor beign nerfed just to have lower rage cost instead of more AC reduce. I bet the AC reduce had some stacking bugs in it and they took the SoE way out of the situation by removing the % improvemnt totally and just smacking some lame rage cost reduce in it. I hope after they have analyzed how the new patch will overall do to the warrior rage generation, they can modify the protection and fury tree to be something more usefull then they currently are. And finally fix the bloodthirst that has been now "under repair" for 5 months. 31/11/9 or 31/5/15 are the best choises. Depends if you like Piercing Howl over Imp Rev. Edit. I think what lead to this mess, was the lead designers idea that fights should be "chaotic" in their nature. Recalling from the beta boards he told this just prior to the legendary "awesome warrior changes" post. Well, what he didnt understand is, that ingame only purpose of warrior is to do his job so, that the fight does not lead into chaotic situation. I remember back when Furor still spoke, he mentioned how much he liked the taunt system that was ingame back then. Hit taunt, your rage converst into certain amount of hate. The system was brilliant, the warrior gameplay was not so fucking stressing and twicth based it currently is and you could ease target each of the 4-5 mobs in a pull and convert some rage into agro on will. Then came this fucking idea of chaotic battles that lead into every warrior modifying their gameplay into tiring twitchgame to keep the battles "non-chaotic". They had a winner warrior, the current wow warrior is a pale shadow what it used to be. Bnet kiddies didnt want to be the "taunt bots" they were in beta, hope they are now pleased with their warrior when they finally fucking understand what they should be doign as warriors in an instance or raid. Tough, I always tought that back in late beta Blizzard balanced the game to be pleasing for those who subsricbe for mare month or two and quit at 60 before they even get into the raid game, leaving the longtime players of wow to lick their fingertips. I wonder who they really should have listened.. __________________ -- yeah right. Last edited by Gar : 03-12-2005 at 04:50 PM.

03-12-2005, 04:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
AntionidesRZ Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 27 +0 Internets	re: Its nice to see that its not just me thanks

03-12-2005, 09:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Kaige The Diet Coke of Evil Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 805	I'm Fury/Prot spec'd through with Flurry/Concussion, and it was alright before. I managed to sneak in some fighting on Test server in-between crashes and before it went down for good. I picked a fight with some of the 60-range mobs in East Plaguelands, banshees and skeleton knights. Seemed like I wasn't missing as much, although I did see the mobs actually getting a block or parry in. Rage seem to generate pretty quickly instead of feeling as if I was starving. I noticed I was seeing more "gain 1 rage" messages as well. Hopefully I can test it out a little more soon. __________________ Kaige Diplomacy: The ability to tell someone to go to Hell so that they'll look forward to making the trip.

03-13-2005, 08:13 AM	#10 (permalink)
Frax Not So Hopey Changey Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Axis of Evil Posts: 2,667	They just need to make shield blocking a % of overall damage instead of a fixed number, so that it scales with mob damage. __________________ Barack Obama. 50% rich white man.

03-12-2005, 10:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
ex-genj Sean and I soloed Inno with Mistwalkers in 99 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 768 -4 Internets	Prot sucks basically. The long way to say it is if they made prot tank significantly better than non prot then basically all warriors would be forced to go prot or gimp themselves. Of course now prot warriors are gimp in solo and pvp for only a tiny increase in tanking and taunting abilities. The sunder nerf doesn't help either of course. Makes you wonder what's going through the dev's heads. Basically even though I MT MC/ony I see no reason to put any points into prot post patch, so I'll get to kill rogues in 3 hits again.

03-13-2005, 01:25 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ziggurat Oldschool Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 296 +3 Internets	I take last stand, toughness and defiance in prot, and even those aren't REALLY necessary

03-13-2005, 07:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	I don't think there are too many players who enjoy being a taunt/heal bot. Would be nice to have each tree function well in all aspects of the game. Like was said, prot has a slight edge in pve, but when it comes to solo and pvp... I would rather see the prot tree gain ground in pvp and solo than just boost it's pve value. We all know what will happen then. It will be similar to priests/druids where if you want to group/raid you are almost forced to choose a path for your talents.

03-13-2005, 09:16 AM	#11 (permalink)
AntionidesRZ Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 27 +0 Internets	re: I understand the thing where they're afraid to make Holy Priests & Protection Warriors awesome or else it would be required but personally I dont see a problem with Prot. being the clearly optimal choice for tanking..thats how it should be..lots of warriors in our guild envision a blademaster style warrior and thats what they enjoy..arms/fury with a 2hand..I want to be a shield tank but block just isn't worth a shit right now.

03-13-2005, 09:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
AngryGerbil zero signal Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 3,547	I've been Prot since day one but the changes to Sunder Armor and Shield Block, when it goes live, will cause me to repsec to Arms. I'm a little worried about losing Imp. Revenge, but that's about it. Block is useless, as is most of the Prot tree. When these changes go live, I'm not seeing how respeccing to Arms is going to hurt my tanking, mitigation, or aggro holding abilites at all (minus Revenge and the one with more hate per attack...Defiance?) Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll go Arms and be like "Holy shit I'm gimped! I can't hold aggro for shit and mobs go through me like tissue paper!", but I somehow doubt it. __________________ Doesn't speak the language. Holds no currency.

03-13-2005, 10:03 AM	#14 (permalink)
Nakilos Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,591 +0 Internets	All their change resulted in was making Sunder Armor what ya spam instead of taunt. I like the Protection build personally, but as I do raids more often the stuns especially are becoming wastes of points. The gains to your efficicacy as a tank are pretty much the defensive talents and defiance. Everything else falls under "nice to have, but not really awesome". It has very few abilities which are beneficial in all situations, ie the stuns are weak in a real raid setting, shield discipline has 0 use in PVP or soloing settings, compared to the arms build which is fully functional in all settings. I think I'll definately change soon, and go back to arms build by the time the honor system goes live, likely 31/5/15 for the small benefits to tanking.

03-13-2005, 10:45 AM	#15 (permalink)
Daltheb Fabled Warrior Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 16 +0 Internets	Protection Spec is worthless. Protection Spec is 100% useless. Why? Because I've killed all of MC (minus Majorhomo) and Onyxia as BOTH a 43 prot/8 arms spec and 31 arms/20 fury spec, and can say I have been just as successful in both builds. The result? Protection spec is not only unnecessary, but detrimental if you wish to be able to do more than being slightly more efficient in raid instances. And for the guy who said that Enrage is worthless in some above post, I'm guessing you don't PVP much! Then again, I'm on Archimonde so retaining PVP viability is crucial. P.S. Sup Nakilos! Nice to see KTF still going strong. I tried 31/5/15 also and basically realized that those 15 points in Prot are better spent in Fury to get Enrage. Those uber crits make a huge difference in PVP! And hey, they even help with threat generation too.

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