Instance player cap a mistake?

[Ghime]

Does anyone else find this a step in the wrong direction? Myself and most everyone I talk to thinks so. Scenario: Your guild plans a stratholm run. You get 10 people together and 2 more members log on wanting to raid. "Sorry, we have 10 already, you can either sit in ogrimmar being bored, or log out...". This change feels very very restricting. Now, I understand blizzard wants to make these instances "non trivial" but let's be honest... Once through is enough to make the instance trivial. Limiting numbers does not increase challenge, it increases boredom. The reason I keep doing these instances are

A. To do something with my guild
B. To meet new invites
C. For loot that rarely drops

I have no problem grinding through these zones as long as I have the company of my friends/guild. I think it is a bit late to make these changes? There is a huge gap from 15 player cap... to 40 player cap? What happens to the guilds with 20ish people, do they split their guild up and fight for positions in raid slots? I thought these games were about having fun, being with your friends. These changes are taking away from both in a BIG way. For those who wish to say these caps provide a challenge... they fixed the "drop from raid" method of completing quests which forces players to 5 man these instances, isn't that enough? What about scaling mobs based on # of people in the raid much like diablo II or CoH. The point here is not to argue difficulty of these instances, it is to argue that we are being restricted who we can play with which leads to guild members and friends being turned away. Tigole if you read this, please take all this into serious consideration.

[Mkopec1]

Im already seeing this in my guild.

Example... Last night the guild was doing LBRS with 15. The leader wants the guild to practice with 15 since its gonna be the cap.

So the others which usually came along are screwed.

This also leads to seperation via class...Like "We already have 3 Rogues coming, we dont need anymore" where these extra roguesor whatever class would come along before this change. It makes the raid leaders pick and choose, and ulimately a "core" group of 15 or 10 forms and all the others in the guild can fuck off for all they care.

Now you basically have to field 2 raids of 15, but my guild is not big enough to field 2 yet. And in reality my guild,which has about 20-25 LV60's is about the average guild size. There are very few guilds which can field 40 or 2-3 15 man raids. Usually to do the 40man content a couple diffent guilds raid together.

[Braen]

It's going to be like picking sides for a pick up football game.. Some people wil be the last to be picked and will be left out.

Sucks to be them. Better luck next time!

[Ghime]

That is a perfect example what is going to happen. Rather then bringing friends together it is going to divide them. The social aspect of these game is #1 in my opinion and is being stripped away. If enough people speak out maybe they will reconsider the change, or find a different solution. I personally think fixing the "drop raid" exploit does the trick. The fix forces groups to 5 man the instance, which is a good fun challenge, but not more then a few times as it is very slow.

[Sinshiu]

Player caps are good, it's nice to know there are places that give a good challenge and there's no way to circumvent said challenge by out zerging it.

I wish they would put in a system that scales the reward to how many players you used to defeat it. Say, keep the current drop rate for up to 10 players, but if a 5 man group complete it, increase the droprate on blues and epics by 50% or something. That would take the boredom off a little bit and make things very challenging.

[Ghime]

Once again... this thread has nothing to do with challenge. Don't get me wrong, the more challenge the better. I understand there is an aspect regarding challenge, but this thread is not about challenge, its about the social aspect.

[Braen]

Originally posted by Sinshiu
Player caps are good, it's nice to know there are places that give a good challenge and there's no way to circumvent said challenge by out zerging it.

I wish they would put in a system that scales the reward to how many players you used to defeat it. Say, keep the current drop rate for up to 10 players, but if a 5 man group complete it, increase the droprate on blues and epics by 50% or something. That would take the boredom off a little bit and make things very challenging.

How does it hurt you if they want to zerg their instance?

How does it effect you if they trivialize the encounter with numbers and by doing so make the chances that any one of them will get the drop they need dwindle to almost nothing?

This is an example of poor content design. Maybe they should make the instance determine the power/level/hp/number of the mobs based on the number of characters "assigned" to that saved instance. That way you can't zerg it, the loot could be evenly distributed and friends/guildies won't be left at the zone in saying "KHANNNNNNNNNNNNNN!"

I can jsut see the instance cliques forming now.

"hey can I goto Dire Maul with you?"

"Sorry you aren't on the list."

[Mkopec1]

And whats ultimately gonna happen? My guess is that these guilds which have their "core" groups already chosen will see the others leave. After all why be in a guild which your not participating in?

And this is not a good thing.

[Deathwing]

Originally posted by Sinshiu
Player caps are good, it's nice to know there are places that give a good challenge and there's no way to circumvent said challenge by out zerging it.

I wish they would put in a system that scales the reward to how many players you used to defeat it. Say, keep the current drop rate for up to 10 players, but if a 5 man group complete it, increase the droprate on blues and epics by 50% or something. That would take the boredom off a little bit and make things very challenging.

You do realize that bringing more people intrinsically reduces the reward? More people fighting for the same amount of loot means you'll have to do it more times to gear everyone up.

Yeah, yeah, it's less challenging. Well, excuse me for saying, but I am not going to do strath with anything less than 10. Locking down 7 monster pulls as a warrior is fucking insane. Raids are boring, but I rather do that than get carpal tunel from the keyboard maneuvers I have to perform in a 5-man.

[AngryGerbil]

I don't understand. If they want to put caps on this shit, fine, but at least give my guild something to do. We're not quite ready for MC yet so if these changes go in next week, there will now be nothing that our guild can do as a whole. They need some 15-30 man stuff to do.

[Mkopec1]

Originally posted by AngryGerbil
I don't understand. If they want to put caps on this shit, fine, but at least give my guild something to do. We're not quite ready for MC yet so if these changes go in next week, there will now be nothing that our guild can do as a whole. They need some 15-30 man stuff to do.

I agree, and what did they add with the next patch?

Another 5 man capped dungeon.

[Rythonn]

The point of the cap is to make really good gear hard to get without making it a raid target. See if they put in really good gear on targets that hard to kill with 5 people, it allows your casual gamer to get good gear without the need of 40 others. But then raid groups come along and slaughter everything making it easy for them to get the really good gear.

They are using the cap to level the playing field. It sounds great and works nicely on paper. But when you add in the social aspect it goes to hell. If this was in at the start of the game I think many guilds and people would have chosen different classes, but then you take away the fun aspect of not being able to play whatever you want.

[Brutul Tarew Marr]

Originally posted by Ghime
Once again... this thread has nothing to do with challenge. Don't get me wrong, the more challenge the better. I understand there is an aspect regarding challenge, but this thread is not about challenge, its about the social aspect.

Unfortunately there's no way to balance anything for less than 100 people without making it trivial to zerg. That is how we wound up with raids tuned for 72 in EQ1.

[Ghime]

If their goal is to make certain end game gear harder to obtain, giving it more status, it is a little late for that. Most 60s are decked out already. So players pre patch will have gotten all the benefits of these instances, while new players to these instances post patch will struggle (if you wanna call it that). This creates a huge gap in player equipment. Those who did it pre-patch win, those who have to do it post patch... lose.

[Ghime]

Originally posted by Brutul Tarew Marr
Unfortunately there's no way to balance anything for less than 100 people without making it trivial to zerg. That is how we wound up with raids tuned for 72 in EQ1.

Diablo II did it, which is a blizzard product. The enemies scaled based on how many people were in the game (instance). Sure the situations are different, but I don't see why this could not be applied to WoW, other then rewriting code, which I know won't happen haha.