Mages Downtime: Is it really an issue?

[Immy]

First off let me say I have a level 60 mage in retail.. Right now I have ~ 6500 mana and my water does 2995 mana over 30 seconds.

Basically to go from 0 mana to 6500 it takes about 50-55 seconds.

There is alot of whining going on that mages need new water at lvl 60. Right now mages have more issues that that, but I think the main one that affects this directly is itemization.

The end game mage has one thing on his mind for loot, intelligence. Because of this the mana pools are getting deeper and deeper, but in turn the downtime is also getting longer and longer.

How can blizzard balance this to not make mages overpowered (Mages kill VERY fast at high levels...giving them a summonable 4400+ mana drink (like the one at argent dawn)) would probably be overpowered...maybe.

Bliz can tackle this issue many ways..

1) Give more items that directly increase DPS (like a rebirth of +damage items). This would cut down on deepening mana pools yet give mages the itemization they need in the end game.

2) Give a post lvl 50 water

3) Give another way to regain mana, such as an equivilent of bandages for HP but a "brain bandage"

Basically what I'm asking is, for those who play high level mages...do you think that we *need* a new high level water? Or are we good as we are right now?

Personally I find playing a lvl 60 pure caster much more tedious and boring than a melee. You kill faster but your downtime is much higher (infinately higher in some cases (rogues)). I think it's an issue that needs to be resolved in one form or another.

[Slagar]

As a mage on a pvp server, I have forgone any +spirit items in lieu of +int/sta, as a result, my regen is about as low as it could be.

Yeah I can't grind as fast as a rogue, every time I duo with one this becomes very obvious. But I feel that the tradeoff of longer downtime is worth the ability to quadbomb 3-5 mobs of even level, I've yet to come across a non-mage witness me AoE grinding not stop and look on with mouths gaping. It's fun, not really that much faster, but it's what our class does.

In the end, better water would be nice, but *shrug* it's not going to make or break us.

[PsaY]

I really find the down-time to be very small, think about it. In most games soloing like this would have 50 times the down-time or downright impossible to do(FFXI) as a mage.

I'm not 60 yet, and I feel the itemization could use improvement but overall I do NOT feel mages downtime is a issue.

[frott]

Originally posted by Immy

There is alot of whining going on

Q: Where is the whining going on?
A: Retard world.

Giving mages more wa-wa isn't going to fix the problem that they get all class envious in a huff when their upgrade curve/dps hits a near-plateau while other classes roll over the new "Adjective Noun of the Adjective Noun" weapon they've found.

So, since the grossly theoretical chain nuking to do big damage and then having to drink between every mob doesn't really go away when you have to have downtime afterwards, I fail to see how giving the better water fixes the downtime.

[PsaY]

Originally posted by Slagar
As a mage on a pvp server, I have forgone any +spirit items in lieu of +int/sta, as a result, my regen is about as low as it could be.

Yeah I can't grind as fast as a rogue, every time I duo with one this becomes very obvious. But I feel that the tradeoff of longer downtime is worth the ability to quadbomb 3-5 mobs of even level, I've yet to come across a non-mage witness me AoE grinding not stop and look on with mouths gaping. It's fun, not really that much faster, but it's what our class does.

In the end, better water would be nice, but *shrug* it's not going to make or break us.

Is Spirit really useful? I'm on a PvE server and full arcane with some fire. Right now im going for INT/STA as well for ability to give me more hits. Also am going sword/offhand instead of staff right now since I feel like my Red Mage in FFXI . I didn't feel the regen on spirit was worth it.

[Immy]

Originally posted by frott
Q: Where is the whining going on?
A: Retard world.

Giving mages more wa-wa isn't going to fix the problem that they get all class envious in a huff when their upgrade curve/dps hits a near-plateau while other classes roll over the new "Adjective Noun of the Adjective Noun" weapon they've found.

So, since the grossly theoretical chain nuking to do big damage and then having to drink between every mob doesn't really go away when you have to have downtime afterwards, I fail to see how giving the better water fixes the downtime.

I thought it was self-explanetory that the 'whining' always goes on in the worldofwarcraft boards.

Nevertheless, I'm assuming you're saying that itemization needs to be fixed to resolve the issue, specifically end game.

I do think that new water would be a "quick-fix" to the much broader problem, which is end game cloth wearing itemization.


Speaking of...

The new +damage items that have been popping up now...has anyone seen these affects on item with stats?

Such as a ring with +int AND +15 fire damage?

[Lenardo]

i'm a Shaman and i am going +int +sta on my gear...

level 34 and have 2200+ mana buffed i believe

compared to another shaman in my guild i had over 600 more mana - all due to my gear choice.

[The Bog]

Originally posted by Lenardo
i'm a Shaman and i am going +int +sta on my gear...

level 34 and have 2200+ mana buffed i believe

compared to another shaman in my guild i had over 600 more mana - all due to my gear choice.

What gear did they use, AGI?

[AngryGerbil]

Originally posted by Immy
I thought it was self-explanetory that the 'whining' always goes on in the worldofwarcraft boards.

Yeah, that's what he said.

[Vorph]

Originally posted by PsaY
I really find the down-time to be very small, think about it. In most games soloing like this would have 50 times the down-time or downright impossible to do(FFXI) as a mage.

I'm not 60 yet, and I feel the itemization could use improvement but overall I do NOT feel mages downtime is a issue.

I have to assume that you've never played any class but mage then. I've played just about everything except warlock and druid to a significant level, and I've yet to see another class with any significant downtime whatsoever.

My shaman now? I think I bought water maybe twice while leveling to 60. Never had any significant downtime that required more than the drinks I got as loot from the 3572934 piece of shit chests I opened that turned out to be fucking lunchboxes.

Of course, someone will play the "but but but mages kill fast" card. And they do, sort of. They kill gimpy shit really fast. I'd like to see a mage solo some of the elites that I can, let alone what a priest can do. And for flat out kill rate, a mage isn't even in the ballpark of a rogue who only has to stop occasionally for an 8 second bandage.

In short, mages are gay. It's the class you always want in your group but you sure as hell don't want to play one yourself. They are there for the truly pain in the ass pulls that require AEing, and to be the drink machine. Imo, that isn't a class role, or at least not enough of one, and it needs to be fixed through spells AND itemization.

[Bazael]

Whoa there buddy...

A priest isn't going to solo anything spectacular. The problem with trying to solo elites as a priest, is the fact that we have shit for armor.

Any level 55+ elite right now, will hit me for base damage of 300-400. Will probably mortal strike me for 600, or cleave for around the same. At 3100 hps, trying to heal against that, and do any considerable amount of damage, is a joke.

Priest armor and melee skills are piss poor. Last week while doing a scholo run, and killing one of the main bosses who ports you into a room with 3 pussy mobs (gotta kill the 3 mobs and a door opens and you can get out and jointhe main fight again) I was unable to put a dent in the mobs. My staff skill was 290 at the time and I have a Tinderhaven Staff (I think thats the name, drops from Wyrmthalak) It has pretty damn good dps. Yet these mobs that have maybe 1000 hps at best, were able to get the best of me.

For me to solo a mob, it usually involves burning it down with SW:P and mind blast. My staff dps doesn't amount to shit. A normal mob I can heal against just fine (usually my renew will out heal their damage) but if its an elite mob, they tear me up in no time.


Anyway, to address the initial post - This issue does not just affect mages. Priests have the same problem. On a bad pull, its not hard to dump a full tank of mana healing your group, and then trying to drink back up 7000 mana takes quite awhile.

[PsaY]

I've played Warlock, Paladin, Rogue, and Shaman to mid 20s. Might not be super high but it all depends on what you feel comfortable playing with. If you don't enjoy the mage class and the *gasp* 1 minute max of downtime don't play it.

I think changes are due for mages, minor ones such as tweaking with spells and better mage itemization. Blizzard is aware of customer concerns and I feel confident in there ability to balance classes in the future.

Why are you soloing elites by the way? I can get just as good experience mowing down greens/yellows pretty much.

[Algol Devilstar]

Allow me to be the first to say you are retarded Psay.

[Kodylan]

Immy: Right now other than a few tailored items the + damage with stats is restricted to blue or better world drops or instance only drops. So far no random green items have popped up with stats and + to damage. Hopefully it's never the case because some of these new items post-patch are too close to instance drops for comfort as it is.

[Block Daddy]

Originally posted by PsaY
I've played Warlock, Paladin, Rogue, and Shaman to mid 20s. Might not be super high but it all depends on what you feel comfortable playing with. If you don't enjoy the mage class and the *gasp* 1 minute max of downtime don't play it.

See here in lies the flaw in your statement. Show me another class that comes close to "*gasp* 1 minute max of downtime" 7100 mana w/ 2900 water is ridiculous. Granted now that mana biscuits are working, I can carry a couple stacks around with me but there is no way I would be able to afford using them full time at 80s for 5. I will summon water for my group in BRS for example, and I'll make a stack for the priest/hunter/paladin/etc and in the whole raid they'll use maybe that one whole stack versus my 3-4+, depending on how many runs we make.

Originally posted by PsaY
I think changes are due for mages, minor ones such as tweaking with spells and better mage itemization. Blizzard is aware of customer concerns and I feel confident in there ability to balance classes in the future.

I wouldn't call spell tweaking and better itemization "minor" Spells are the entire class.

And on the other issue, while I would love to believe you, the next time I see a blue response to a mage issue in the mage profession forum, or in the general forum, it'll be the first. The last 3-4 patches all I see is more nerfage for mages. And that's just what gets listed in the patch notes. They even took away our 6min recharge on evocation and made it 10min. That was one helpful talent that helped cut down our downtime by about a 1/3 or so and it got nerfed in the good ol' stealth fashion right at the end of closed beta. And then of course runes and reagents. At least they had sense enough to remove the ones for INT buffs, while I don't mind the travel ones at all, I'm just pointing out the constant nerfs to my class, while showing you also the lack of buffs. There has been zero in the last couple of months to balance out the nerf after nerf.