Why do people Overlook PvP?

CnCGOD · 10-30-2004, 03:21 PM

In a MMORPG people always complain about how there is no skill. The only thing anyone needs is time and enough people. Do they not relalize that PvP is the solution to the problem? Most PvP is NOT a gank fest, its about controling regions, battleing for important areas with the prime drops/spawns. How can people say there is no challenge in WoW when they play on a regular server. How can they avoid PvP the enitre time then complain that it is too easy? Its time for everyone to learn that AI will never ever hold a candle to battleing a human player. PvP is the mystical challenge everyone always pines for. Gather your courage and play on a pvp server for a while, odds are youll never go back.

McCheese · 10-30-2004, 03:46 PM

I haven't played WoW.

Success in MMORPG's is directly related to how much time you invest, and in my experience, the same holds true for PvP in MMORPG's.

If I want PvP I'll play a first person shooter without items, levels, etc where everyone is on a level playing field.

The fact that WoW has PvP is really the main reason I'm going to be trying out EQ2 instead. Although that may change, depending on my experiences in open beta.

Iannis · 10-30-2004, 03:50 PM

Because it's an unreliable beast. You can estimate when the PvP will get fun, but you can't just say "k everyone log in at 6, be formed up at 7, lets roll until 12." Sometimes ya just don't have anything to do.

Plus it's difficult to balance the classes against each other (shit, unless you're just an FPS); even if classes ARE miraculously balanced whiners would cry on every semi-official messageboard they could about how X > Y ...

DAoC spent quite awhile, and never got it right.Of course, they also decided to go off and make PvE expansions for what was supposed to be a PvP game...the PvE was worse than EQ, cmon Mythic! Buncha jackasses.

I wouldn't touch a WoW PvP server with a 10-foot pole. If the game was balanced for PvP, mebe

but it's not.

Mkopec1 · 10-30-2004, 03:52 PM

Some people just dont like to PvP.

And from what I see in MMORPGS so far is that PvP people are a minority in NA.

Phoenix · 10-30-2004, 03:53 PM

No long big ass post is needed. The answer is that most people are pussies who dont wanna take up a real challenge.

Even though pvp would solve a lot of issues plaguing MMOs.

Mkopec1 · 10-30-2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix
Even though pvp would solve a lot of issues plaguing MMOs.

I just dont see that, man.

There has been morpgs with PvP as a sidegame, as an end game, or based around PvP, and they are just not popular.

LucyKemp · 10-30-2004, 04:01 PM

I think Ultima Online had PvP perfected.

The fast pace of the game was to blame for it I feel though. Guild v Guild was great, because it emphasised on team work ALOT, cross healing, staying together, picking same targets etc, Player versus Player was perfected, almost equal chance on both parties, because templates were similar, or balanced at least. And finally, Factions.. Tons V tons, the better side normally won, great fun defending your base from about 50 other people trying to get through, total carnage, but so much fun.

Unfotunately, this was the only PvP game which appealed to me =-( Don't know why, but these PVM focused games, are too balanced for PVM rather than PVP, whereras in UO, things were balanced for PvP purely.

Phoenix · 10-30-2004, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mkopec1
I just dont see that, man.

There has been morpgs with PvP as a sidegame, as an end game, or based around PvP, and they are just not popular.

Maybe not a lot of problems but IMO it would solve the biggest one, the repititivness. It would break up the auto attack/nuke mob until dead or chain heal main tank until mob is dead. Would be more than kill XXX mob tonight, wait for respawn.

namon · 10-30-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Maybe not a lot of problems but IMO it would solve the biggest one, the repititivness. It would break up the auto attack/nuke mob until dead or chain heal main tank until mob is dead. Would be more than kill XXX mob tonight, wait for respawn.

You are so right... However, I think if a game based soley on PVP is to be sucessful they really really need to take the PVE mostly out of the game. IT should not be about the environment at all imho, but about player interaction on all levels. Not just fighting each other, but teams/communities forming to help the overall cause against each other. I also think in the PVP realm is where skill based, not level based, styles would really excel as well.

I really was hoping that was what SWG was going for, but as soon as I found out it was going to be PVE based... well that's a whole new discussion.

BUt that would be the only way I'd do PVP is if there is just no real importance to the PVE aspect at all. IF there is... there are just way way too many avenues for grief, and I just hate that.

ketsui · 10-30-2004, 04:30 PM

The reason most people don't like PVP is cause its not implemented properly. Like the rewards, the penalty for death, these are reasons why the majority of the people don't like pvp. If its done right more people won't be scared of it, but too many people are jaded cause of eq's fucked up pvp system and instantly think "pvp is all kids ganking and losing hours of fun to corpse camping". Anyway if people were more open minded and gave it a try they would realize how fun it could truly be.

Ketsui

Kolle · 10-30-2004, 04:45 PM

I just don't see mmorpgs having the best PvP so I don't even pay attention to that part of the game. I might do it if I get bored, but that's it.

I think to have the best PvP, like others have said, you need everyone on equal footing in terms of items, life, etc... That just isn't going to happen in a game with levels, uber loot, and everything else.

I was kicking around an idea, tho. I've always liked games where you had lots of pets/minions. I'd like to see a game with extremely detailed pets/minions. You can design them, breed them, build them, equip them, train them, etc...all that kind of stuff. Hundreds and hundreds of hours worth of gameplay, grouping, and raiding with them. You're actual character doesn't really particpate in the PvE type fights. Only enough to maintain and control your pets/minions.

The PvP part comes into play with your actual characters who never really upgrade their gear since all PvE loot is meant for your pets/minions. You could have different clothes or whatever for thousands of different styles, but where PvP power is concerned you are and will always be the same as someone that just made a character. PvP raids and events could be in the game to regulate who controls different materials or supplies that would be important to their pets/minions for PvE.

I know that isn't the idea of the year or anything, it's just a rough thought i haven't fleshed out completely.

LucyKemp · 10-30-2004, 04:55 PM

Kolle, i'm gonna buy your game when you're rich and famous

sounds great

Mecha Washu · 10-30-2004, 04:59 PM

Face it the best PVP MMORPG that could ever be made would be Pokemon online.

Szlia · 10-30-2004, 05:18 PM

As far as I am concerned I think the problem is that PvP is not content. In the sense that there are no achievements in PvP that give you a sense of progression. And I don't mean progression as in how powerfull you become, but as how far you get in your journey.

Let's take DAoC for example. I read how the RvR was designed and I got bored before even playing. We battle... we take the relic... we battle... you take the relic... we battle... etc. No achievement. Nothing that can be done and put behind you as you focus on something new. Now I guess if the battle is great fun it's all cool. But then... why put all the incredibly cumbersome mechanics of a MMORPG in the mix? Let's just make a Battlefield clone in a fantasy setting and have some mad PvP fun.

If PvP is not content, it can be an nice distraction as a side occupation I guess. So the battlefield thingy from the PvE servers of WoW seem pretty interesting in that regard... maybe they will be implemented at some point...

Jait · 10-30-2004, 05:26 PM

With exception to the person who thinks your "manhood" is directly related to if you PvP or not, the answers here explain it exactly.

For my part, I love PvP. The problem in MMORPGs is how poorly it is implemented. Any loophole gets exploited, corpse camping, zone camping, griefing is par for course.

If you only play MMORPGs you'd be shit out of luck.

But guess what? There's tons of other games mainly FPS/Strategy, that know how to get PvP right. So why bother?

Shadowbane took YEARS to balance their system and it still had all the problems MMORPGs experience. There's nothing more fun than to warp to a town and get knifed in the back before your client has finished loaded.

Fuck that. Give me a BFG and let me loose in an Arena.

10-30-2004, 03:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
CnCGOD Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 534 -23 Internets	Why do people Overlook PvP? In a MMORPG people always complain about how there is no skill. The only thing anyone needs is time and enough people. Do they not relalize that PvP is the solution to the problem? Most PvP is NOT a gank fest, its about controling regions, battleing for important areas with the prime drops/spawns. How can people say there is no challenge in WoW when they play on a regular server. How can they avoid PvP the enitre time then complain that it is too easy? Its time for everyone to learn that AI will never ever hold a candle to battleing a human player. PvP is the mystical challenge everyone always pines for. Gather your courage and play on a pvp server for a while, odds are youll never go back.

10-30-2004, 03:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
Iannis Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Butt Hugging Moose Jockey Posts: 4,968 +0 Internets	Because it's an unreliable beast. You can estimate when the PvP will get fun, but you can't just say "k everyone log in at 6, be formed up at 7, lets roll until 12." Sometimes ya just don't have anything to do. Plus it's difficult to balance the classes against each other (shit, unless you're just an FPS); even if classes ARE miraculously balanced whiners would cry on every semi-official messageboard they could about how X > Y ... DAoC spent quite awhile, and never got it right.Of course, they also decided to go off and make PvE expansions for what was supposed to be a PvP game...the PvE was worse than EQ, cmon Mythic! Buncha jackasses. I wouldn't touch a WoW PvP server with a 10-foot pole. If the game was balanced for PvP, mebe but it's not. Last edited by Iannis : 10-30-2004 at 09:20 PM.

10-30-2004, 03:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mkopec1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,211	Some people just dont like to PvP. And from what I see in MMORPGS so far is that PvP people are a minority in NA. __________________ When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.

10-30-2004, 04:01 PM	#7 (permalink)
LucyKemp Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: London Posts: 230 +0 Internets	a I think Ultima Online had PvP perfected. The fast pace of the game was to blame for it I feel though. Guild v Guild was great, because it emphasised on team work ALOT, cross healing, staying together, picking same targets etc, Player versus Player was perfected, almost equal chance on both parties, because templates were similar, or balanced at least. And finally, Factions.. Tons V tons, the better side normally won, great fun defending your base from about 50 other people trying to get through, total carnage, but so much fun. Unfotunately, this was the only PvP game which appealed to me =-( Don't know why, but these PVM focused games, are too balanced for PVM rather than PVP, whereras in UO, things were balanced for PvP purely.

10-30-2004, 04:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mecha Washu I join guilds for loot. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 83 -2 Internets	Face it the best PVP MMORPG that could ever be made would be Pokemon online. __________________ > Wield dagger You look slightly less feeble. A knight rides by on a gleaming white charger. He is bedecked from head to toe with shining armor. His shoulder armor alone is big enough to house you, your family and any pets you pick up at the auction house, and still have room to hang that pathetic dagger of yours on the wall as a constant reminder of your utter weakness compared to a true man like him

10-30-2004, 03:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
McCheese computerless Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 1,047 +3 Internets	I haven't played WoW. Success in MMORPG's is directly related to how much time you invest, and in my experience, the same holds true for PvP in MMORPG's. If I want PvP I'll play a first person shooter without items, levels, etc where everyone is on a level playing field. The fact that WoW has PvP is really the main reason I'm going to be trying out EQ2 instead. Although that may change, depending on my experiences in open beta.

10-30-2004, 04:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
ketsui Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 141 -1 Internets	The reason most people don't like PVP is cause its not implemented properly. Like the rewards, the penalty for death, these are reasons why the majority of the people don't like pvp. If its done right more people won't be scared of it, but too many people are jaded cause of eq's fucked up pvp system and instantly think "pvp is all kids ganking and losing hours of fun to corpse camping". Anyway if people were more open minded and gave it a try they would realize how fun it could truly be. Ketsui

10-30-2004, 04:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	I just don't see mmorpgs having the best PvP so I don't even pay attention to that part of the game. I might do it if I get bored, but that's it. I think to have the best PvP, like others have said, you need everyone on equal footing in terms of items, life, etc... That just isn't going to happen in a game with levels, uber loot, and everything else. I was kicking around an idea, tho. I've always liked games where you had lots of pets/minions. I'd like to see a game with extremely detailed pets/minions. You can design them, breed them, build them, equip them, train them, etc...all that kind of stuff. Hundreds and hundreds of hours worth of gameplay, grouping, and raiding with them. You're actual character doesn't really particpate in the PvE type fights. Only enough to maintain and control your pets/minions. The PvP part comes into play with your actual characters who never really upgrade their gear since all PvE loot is meant for your pets/minions. You could have different clothes or whatever for thousands of different styles, but where PvP power is concerned you are and will always be the same as someone that just made a character. PvP raids and events could be in the game to regulate who controls different materials or supplies that would be important to their pets/minions for PvE. I know that isn't the idea of the year or anything, it's just a rough thought i haven't fleshed out completely.

10-30-2004, 04:55 PM	#12 (permalink)
LucyKemp Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: London Posts: 230 +0 Internets	Kolle, i'm gonna buy your game when you're rich and famous sounds great

10-30-2004, 05:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
Szlia Conquest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 4,813 +16 Internets	As far as I am concerned I think the problem is that PvP is not content. In the sense that there are no achievements in PvP that give you a sense of progression. And I don't mean progression as in how powerfull you become, but as how far you get in your journey. Let's take DAoC for example. I read how the RvR was designed and I got bored before even playing. We battle... we take the relic... we battle... you take the relic... we battle... etc. No achievement. Nothing that can be done and put behind you as you focus on something new. Now I guess if the battle is great fun it's all cool. But then... why put all the incredibly cumbersome mechanics of a MMORPG in the mix? Let's just make a Battlefield clone in a fantasy setting and have some mad PvP fun. If PvP is not content, it can be an nice distraction as a side occupation I guess. So the battlefield thingy from the PvE servers of WoW seem pretty interesting in that regard... maybe they will be implemented at some point... __________________ -retrosabotage-

10-30-2004, 05:26 PM	#15 (permalink)
Jait Irritable Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 3,508	With exception to the person who thinks your "manhood" is directly related to if you PvP or not, the answers here explain it exactly. For my part, I love PvP. The problem in MMORPGs is how poorly it is implemented. Any loophole gets exploited, corpse camping, zone camping, griefing is par for course. If you only play MMORPGs you'd be shit out of luck. But guess what? There's tons of other games mainly FPS/Strategy, that know how to get PvP right. So why bother? Shadowbane took YEARS to balance their system and it still had all the problems MMORPGs experience. There's nothing more fun than to warp to a town and get knifed in the back before your client has finished loaded. Fuck that. Give me a BFG and let me loose in an Arena.

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