Grouping/Soloing Kreugen's Post

[Tripamang]

If ya haven't read it heres the link http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/threa...l&T=462528&P=1

He basically touches on some massive design concept problems with wow. Mostly the fact that grouping to complete non elite quests rips the fun factor right out of the game. The mobs die way too fast for you to really do anything.. and it doesn't lead to team experience (most WoW players suck in groups, so horribly it's just sad to watch). Also the sucky exp in instance dungeons doesn't really entice anyone to go them other than loot. I don't mind solo'ing on my warrior at all, on my priest it's rather dull the only time I have any sort of fun is in instances.. and the exp disadvantage kinda turns me off the class.

Anyways all in all a good post, and I gotta give Kreugen props for trying to explain to the frothing causal gamer bnet kiddies exactly what he meant.

[Zierain]

The game does feel incredibly easy.

My group that I would normally play with would do instances a few levels earlier to keep the challenge. The real problem with that was there was a bit of a line because of the incredibly stupid high miss rates on mobs 3-4 levels higher then you.

If we could we would have loved to do uldaman at 39-42. But the 45-47 mobs kinda mess that up =/

So we had to wait till 43-44 ish to do it, and we breezed through it, even the final encounter (which was incredibly cool though).

Same thing has happened with Zul'Farrak (though we never did kill that guy who summons 50012034102 salamanders heh).

I really hope the raid material adds more challenge. If not I can see it being like DAoC (necro's able to duo/trio many encounters that are supposedly *epic*) =/

[Tripamang]

Stratholme and upper BRS both provide some serious one group challenges atm.. but yea I have to agree with the mob miss rate thing. Nothing sucks more than having the skill/people to do something but being cock blocked by the system..

I cleared out RFK on my priest twink with a group of mid 20's and I couldn't use a single item from the whole place due to level requirements.. though i had the skill to complete it? Same goes for elite quests.. I completed SM at 33 on my warrior, now I can't even get the quest for the bosses at that level..

I can see why they added this sort of thing in, but it does put the people who want a larger challenge at a disadvantage with a lack of a pay off.

[Immy]

I'm not going to resay what I said at the end of the M&M Thread about this, but did anyone else notice that 4 out of 6 replies on that post assumed he was trying to make a point to take solo'ing out of the game?

The reading comprehension of the majority of the gaming community fucking sucks shit.

It was a great post and I agree 100%

Unfortunately at this point I think it's just food for thought and good discussion material. Implementation of any radical changes at this point is probably not going to happen. Doesn't concern most people on this board anyway, as long as you dont have to deal with the tools that will be LFG for instances you're fine.

One thing I've learned in most MMO's and still rings true is that like goes to like. If you're a tool you'll end up grouping with tools 95% of the time, those who have MMO experience will usually sniff each other out (they stink from playing too many MMO's).

Ok that joke smells too..sorry.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Miss/resist... Gee, I'd like to do that when it's challenging, but it goes from Can't Hit Shit to Only Lose Because It's A Pickup Group just that fast.

I'm still hoping that the reasoning behind the ratios is to give plus to skill in weapon classes more meaning, but we're not seeing the itemization to back that up yet. Crossing my fingers, hoping it will change. Also the minimum level to get quests for those dungeons...well, I doubt anyone could do SM at 33 the way the system works now, so it is currently a moot point. Bleh. Level > Gear/Skill = The Fucking Lose.

[Tukwhump da Trollie]

I think it would be possible to lower the level requirment on some elite quests if they put a max of 5 levels between the lowest and highest lvl person in a group for instances. Would prevent a higher lvl powering people through the quests but let lower levels give it a shot for the challenge.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally posted by Tukwhump da Trollie
I think it would be possible to lower the level requirment on some elite quests if they put a max of 5 levels between the lowest and highest lvl person in a group for instances. Would prevent a higher lvl powering people through the quests but let lower levels give it a shot for the challenge.

Jesus christ that is exactly what I was thinking earlier today. And you just reminded me why I thought giving those quests at earlier levels was a bad idea when I was thinking about it a few weeks ago. And then, I just remembered that those quests were made undoable by the gay system that makes it so you can't kill shit until the tactics you would have used to kill it with less HP/DPS of your own make you fuck it up badly by the time you can do it at all due to the system I was just bitching about. Are you a psychic healer or something?

[McCheese]

...Mostly the fact that grouping to complete non elite quests rips the fun factor right out of the game. The mobs die way too fast for you to really do anything.. and it doesn't lead to team experience (most WoW players suck in groups, so horribly it's just sad to watch).

Heh, sounds just like CoH.

[Vekruul Shuth]

Reading Kruegens replies is like watching someone pissing to try and put out a house fire.

Dudes just dont get it.Hes dead on.HOW can people disagree there.How?

I tried to do Scolomance with a pickup group today...I had a mage that had no idea about sheeping/counter...Im not lying.

He knew what it was...But never even thought about the spells in a group dynamic.He sent me a tell..."Hey that works well eh?"

A priest that would shackle...But NEVER the add or off mob.Always what the MA was on.

I honestly don't even bother explaining shit to people anymore.I was spending more time doing that than actual crawling.

You would think some guilds would have a nice jump on the masses when it comes to BRD/BRS/Scol etc...But the allowing of 50 people in a 5 man instance gets silly.

Good post Kruegen

[Vaclav]

Wow.... I really have to see how ghetto grouping in WoW is, I haven't tried grouping thusfar but soloingwise I was impressed.

If it is truly as ghetto as Kreugen makes it sound I think I'm not gonna bother spending any more time with it - without the social aspect to these games I find they become stale quickly...

[Fulorian]

SM armory is doable at 34 with an intelligent group (have done it.. recently), Library at 32, and Graveyard at 30. Cathedral bosses tend to be rough on the mana, so they've taken level 37 to do.

[Shinrai]

Unfortunately any game in which you are limited to pickup groups can not assume skill. It's just not something the game can solve. I haven't read the post yet, I will, but I do hope that there'll be a wide diversity of high end content and some of it will be hella hard.

However content while levelling has to be sort of available to all, because it's basically part of the levelling progression. Or put another way there's no point in them generating a range (from easy to very hard) for stuff that's going to get obsoleted due to level anyway.

(Edit)

Having read it I disagree. I don't see why having "idiot fields" for the casuals is an issue, as long as there is content for the hardcore. Let them play to the limits of their ability and subsidise the high end game, cause they outnumber us. Heck, it's not like any of the hardcore don't plan on spending most of their time within their guild anyway.

Basically what you argue for is forcing hardcore play on the majority. It won't work. It won't make them skilled group players, it will just make them quit.

Massive design flaw, hah. This is simply blizzard not being suicidal.

[brookesy]

"Without actually reading that marathon dissertation"

Thats gotta be the most retarded thing i have ever seen. That post was not big at all, i think all these bnet kiddies have attention spans of like .2 seconds and cant fathom reading more then 2 sentences.

Edit: I stand corrected:

"If you can't reach the level cap by playing solo the entire way, there's something wrong with the game. "

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Originally posted by Vaclav
Wow.... I really have to see how ghetto grouping in WoW is, I haven't tried grouping thusfar but soloingwise I was impressed.

If it is truly as ghetto as Kreugen makes it sound I think I'm not gonna bother spending any more time with it - without the social aspect to these games I find they become stale quickly...

Sometimes it is great, sometimes it is shit...it's pickup grouping, and WoW didn't invent it. Fact is, if a few loud dickheads don't dissuade what has been an excited MMO community from playing the game, the game at launch will likely have a larger percentage of good players to lame B.netters (and worse) than the Beta does. Class play is fun in this game, much moreso in a group (when not facing non-elite mobs) than solo, but quality of players is quality of players, and since WoW will never be as hardcore as oldschool EQ, there is only a certain extent to which you can ever hope to escape the possibility of grouping with dimwits no matter how hard they make the game. Eventually, given enough time, without experience loss, everyone will reach a certain level. Then you will make the mistake of grouping with them, not knowing just how much they sucked on their way to the level you think is appropriate for the job at hand. Then you suffer. Solution? Get a guild, play with friends, avoid pickup, or just have a tolerance for pain.

[RIvera]

I always thought EQ's golden attribute was the grouping, these people seem to think grouping is a hassle and the undoing of the game. Soloers were always known to be astranged and not good at grouping in EQ, seems like most of the population is under that catagory in WOW.