Concern of WoW...

DisgruntledOrangatang · 08-09-2004, 08:53 PM

Before I get going, no I am not in beta so I have no firsthand experience with WoW only what I read.

So Im at thott's site already blowing my loads on the uber profiles of people in magister and afterlifex and fires of heaven horde to the items I wish I'm going to have in 4 months or whenever WoW is realeased. Then I realized something as I exicitedly hoevered my mouse over each piece of 'phat lewt'...the diversity among equpiment is horrid. All the 'uber' (for lvl 50s) players have very much of the same equpiment even the lower level people. Every mage i saw had a few peices of their xxxx of the atal'ai prophet. Then I started clicking other classes besides mage (the class I want to play) and I noticed priests and warlocks also were wearing the same damn thing...another featherskin cape...another eye of Adaegus. Now I realize all those 3 classes listed are same armor type (cloth) but even in EQ you had your ultor's and your raex's.

Now I also noticed quest's give diff rewards (ice staff and fire staff for example) but my concern is this...Does WoW have enough equipment divercity? This is one thing EQ did bad also until time...every fucker with a CH hotkey wanted his leet donal's armor, akkirus's armor, ultor's armor. Then at time it was different you had equipment choices...should I go for Quarm shield for marrs blessing and snag pauldrons of devastation, or maybe get inny shoulders and take a TZ shield for spellshield...you have mutiplie venues of equip chosing yet in the end you have the same useful effects for your class (Marr's Blessing) but acquired through different items therefore stats and equipment are differed yet you can still get the job done for whatever you job is (tanking, healing , w/e). Of course there is the jizz item every class who can use wants but WoW seems to have too many of these, or too little choices that are viable. I know lvl 50 in WoW isn't endgame but I think there should be a good diversity of VIABLE equipment for your level, throughout all levels no? The effects they have on some items are very nice and more should be added like that so you can chose your equipment based on playstyle (does a war pick items that proc heal when taking damage or ones that increase damage/proc damage).

Another thing is are there enough VIABLE quests that offer VARIED rewards? I realize a lot of equipment is gained through quest rewards, or monsters killed from completing quests. and these quests depend on your faction, but with everyone using the same quests to level up with and getting the same rewards again it cuts from the diversity...if there is enough quests are they useful? Because it seems then everyone on those profiles is doing the same ones for the best item...which there should be no best item just dependant on style of play.

This is a worry of mine is the diversity of WoW within it's equipment and quests/quest reward area. Is it diverse enough to offer more then one viable option for your level so as to differientiate yourself from another person of the same class (or armor type apparently). With the talent system making it so that you cannot max all 3 areas and thus adding diversity among classes, I thought this was awesome because I hated EQ's AA system a maxed cleric was the same as another maxed cleric no specialization shown, now I hope Blizzard can follow suit with the equipment and quests. I do realize that EQ and many other games have their patchwork and bronze sets of their time, but wow seems to already have those too so the items im looking at too not seem to fall into that category of 'standard quality useable and decent for all who can use'. Anyway if it's not a problem then just please enlighten me with some examples and things.

Damn sorry the post was so long just had to get my thoughts across straight.

Zeik-Retired · 08-09-2004, 09:25 PM

Well at this point, where Hunters aren't in the game yet, and over half the classes don't have all of their skills and such, and the level cap isn't even raised to 60 yet...

Do you really think they are worried about itemization?

Hazinak · 08-09-2004, 09:29 PM

I'm not in beta either, so I can't shed any light on the subject. You were looking at Afterlife and FoH profiles, right? These people are 100% achievers (scored from the old MUD survey) and dedicate 6 to 24 hours (not joking) each day to their games. They aren't going to settle for the second best equipment especially when they've been level capped for a month and nothing better to do.

I'd bet if you checked a few level 30-something Joe-nobody profiles, there would be bigger equipment differences especially between horde and alliance. I do read often that quest rewards make people of certain levels look alike, but that always happens. The day after the crafted armor centaurs were put in South Karana every warrior was wearing blue.

Warrik · 08-09-2004, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Before I get going, no I am not in beta so I have no firsthand experience with WoW only what I read.

Your post could have stopped right there then.

DisgruntledOrangatang · 08-09-2004, 09:40 PM

Hence, oh wonderfully smartassed Warrik, why I fucking posted asking these questions...BECAUSE IM NOT IN BETA SO I WOULDN"T KNOW...makes sense foolbag?

To hazinak, yes thats my point even (and especially( the ubers should have varied and viable options for equipment..not all locking into 'the best option' so as to waste time and effort put forth in creating other options that are not deemed 'best'.

Sean · 08-09-2004, 09:48 PM

While I agree that most people go towards the same gear choices, and there isn't really anything to make yourself different from other people gear wise...

The only thing you're seeing is level 1-50 single group content. I don't expect much "uber" gear from those levels. If the same problems exist when we're level 60 and doing raids, then yeah, you have a concern.

I think there are enough choices from 1-40... 40-50 however, not many choices, seeing as there's a lot of unfinished content for that level bracket.

Fulorian · 08-09-2004, 10:55 PM

Lets face it, the loot tables in Zul'Farrak and Sunken Temple are not very deep. Most 50s will have been to ST at least 5 or 6 times, probably more, enough to have most of what they want from there. Since they all want the same things, it leads to gear being very similar . I mean, theres what, 3 encounters that most people farm, and they have anywhere from 3 - 5 drops apiece, with 2 every time? Not counting the stat differences between the Dire Nail's from Erakinus and the Drakeclaw bands / orbs off the Dream Team. To be honest, luck has had more of a factor in those with 'better than average' gear than who you are, in that the only real variation is the ungodly rare purple items. Random shmuck with Dragon's Call and a spattering of all the good ST gear will be more powerful than a normal 50 in a top guild with a Felbane weapon.

Edit: FoH and Afterlife don't really have vastly different gear from Joe 50 Blow, since at the moment theres not much 'skill' required. The only thing thats not terribly accessable to your average guy right now is Uniting the Shattered Amulet, which just means better trinkets for a few, which doesn't make that much difference. If you don't think that its horribly easy, Chief Ukorz Sandscalp of Zul'Farrak has been soloed. I've gotten him to 30% myself, without any potions...

Widdles · 08-09-2004, 11:30 PM

Go look at high-end magelo profiles for EQ... especially pre-GoD where most people wore the same stuff. I do agree though if they are planning on skimping on the loot, it's a bad thing to do. EQ was so sucessful because there was always a next step up, whether it was a 100hp leap or a 5hp leap. MMOGs that have gone on the side of "less loot oriented" have failed horribly.... AC2, Planetside, etc. Even games that are "semi-loot" based (DAoC, SWG, AO, etc) arn't as successful.

Fadaar · 08-09-2004, 11:31 PM

It IS Blizzard after all, the king of cookie cutter equipment and skill layouts, hell look at Diablo II.

Froofy-D · 08-09-2004, 11:46 PM

Diablo2 is one of the best loot systems of any RPG ever.

Mippo · 08-10-2004, 12:00 AM

That's a pretty nice generalization there. Not all of us play 6-24 hours a day. That's true in some cases, but some of us actually play less then your average players. We achieve goals more efficiently then your average player, thus our time investment is smaller since we get to the top faster.

Ukerric · 08-10-2004, 12:27 AM

That's debatable.

D2 operate on a pure random equipment generator. Any piece of equipment can drop from any "appropriate" monster. Except from the very top high-end stuff, whose "appropriate" monsters were a very limited set, seeing someone with a "Sword of X" (substitute whatever) gave you zero hint of where the item came from.

The item generator was relatively good, but even then, the attributes that it placed on items were not very well balanced. At the same "level" of item, you had good ones and utterly worthless PoS, even if they had both one same "level" ability sticked on it. That's like LDoN augments: you get a +7 CON, a +7 AGI or a +7 vs cold augment, as if they were equivalent.

What I would like to see is a good equipment generator. From a given boss, you'd always get a "350-pt item", which the generator would break into "110pt for +55hp" "84pt for +7 spirit", etc... Put a specific bias on boss, so Boss X of area Y will always generate 2 defensive modifiers, while Boss Z of area W will include 2 offense, and you'd get an interesting mix of variety with objectives to strive for ("I want some defensive items, I'd better go there").

Of course, the problem with generated stuff is that, it's not only random, it kills all the wonderful community-building that occurs around clearly identifiable items. Right now, someone says "Gloves of the Atal'Ai prophet", everyone arounds know exactly what he's speaking about. You might not need to click on the link to give the stats. It's a shared experience: you know what you're talking about. Make the items random, and nobody knows what your Gloves are.

That's why the socketing/augment way is nice. It's a way of making your equipment different, while retaining the standardisation. Right now, in EQ, somebody can have exactly the same equipment you have... but completely different stats/resists/mana/hp/FT totals than you have, because he has different augments.

Of course, with the advent of the augment removal, augments have become the 21st to 40th equipment slots, just another set of NODROP equipment. The slight strategy of picking a new piece of equipment and deciding if it was better than your old augmented one on its own, or worth picking because you expected to get an augment for it later... has vanished.

Iszwuun · 08-10-2004, 12:45 AM

Blizzard went through the effort to add a (single) random property to numerous items in the game. Bard's bracer of Intillect comes to mind.

Although i agree that more diversity is better, I wouldn't be suprised if Blizzard is saving items for release.

Personally i would find it a bit discouraging if every item i got in release was the same thing i wore in beta.

I had more to say but this vikodin is making my brain numb, maybe i'll remember later

Angrier · 08-10-2004, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mippo
That's a pretty nice generalization there. Not all of us play 6-24 hours a day. That's true in some cases, but some of us actually play less then your average players. We achieve goals more efficiently then your average player, thus our time investment is smaller since we get to the top faster.

On a side note, the only way to do this in EQ was if the game required skill.. and we all know how much EQ depends on that particular attribute.

Ashadelo · 08-10-2004, 01:34 AM

I don't want to sound like a dick or anything but do some of you people actually think before you post a thread? The game still has months to go before release and you know all the good gear likely WONT make it into beta (seeing as they said most of the raid content wont be in beta) so why even bother making this post when all the good high end gear prolly wont be seen till retail?

08-09-2004, 08:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
DisgruntledOrangatang Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 893	Concern of WoW... Before I get going, no I am not in beta so I have no firsthand experience with WoW only what I read. So Im at thott's site already blowing my loads on the uber profiles of people in magister and afterlifex and fires of heaven horde to the items I wish I'm going to have in 4 months or whenever WoW is realeased. Then I realized something as I exicitedly hoevered my mouse over each piece of 'phat lewt'...the diversity among equpiment is horrid. All the 'uber' (for lvl 50s) players have very much of the same equpiment even the lower level people. Every mage i saw had a few peices of their xxxx of the atal'ai prophet. Then I started clicking other classes besides mage (the class I want to play) and I noticed priests and warlocks also were wearing the same damn thing...another featherskin cape...another eye of Adaegus. Now I realize all those 3 classes listed are same armor type (cloth) but even in EQ you had your ultor's and your raex's. Now I also noticed quest's give diff rewards (ice staff and fire staff for example) but my concern is this...Does WoW have enough equipment divercity? This is one thing EQ did bad also until time...every fucker with a CH hotkey wanted his leet donal's armor, akkirus's armor, ultor's armor. Then at time it was different you had equipment choices...should I go for Quarm shield for marrs blessing and snag pauldrons of devastation, or maybe get inny shoulders and take a TZ shield for spellshield...you have mutiplie venues of equip chosing yet in the end you have the same useful effects for your class (Marr's Blessing) but acquired through different items therefore stats and equipment are differed yet you can still get the job done for whatever you job is (tanking, healing , w/e). Of course there is the jizz item every class who can use wants but WoW seems to have too many of these, or too little choices that are viable. I know lvl 50 in WoW isn't endgame but I think there should be a good diversity of VIABLE equipment for your level, throughout all levels no? The effects they have on some items are very nice and more should be added like that so you can chose your equipment based on playstyle (does a war pick items that proc heal when taking damage or ones that increase damage/proc damage). Another thing is are there enough VIABLE quests that offer VARIED rewards? I realize a lot of equipment is gained through quest rewards, or monsters killed from completing quests. and these quests depend on your faction, but with everyone using the same quests to level up with and getting the same rewards again it cuts from the diversity...if there is enough quests are they useful? Because it seems then everyone on those profiles is doing the same ones for the best item...which there should be no best item just dependant on style of play. This is a worry of mine is the diversity of WoW within it's equipment and quests/quest reward area. Is it diverse enough to offer more then one viable option for your level so as to differientiate yourself from another person of the same class (or armor type apparently). With the talent system making it so that you cannot max all 3 areas and thus adding diversity among classes, I thought this was awesome because I hated EQ's AA system a maxed cleric was the same as another maxed cleric no specialization shown, now I hope Blizzard can follow suit with the equipment and quests. I do realize that EQ and many other games have their patchwork and bronze sets of their time, but wow seems to already have those too so the items im looking at too not seem to fall into that category of 'standard quality useable and decent for all who can use'. Anyway if it's not a problem then just please enlighten me with some examples and things. Damn sorry the post was so long just had to get my thoughts across straight. __________________ "Talk all you want, but when I say I'm going to kill you, there's nothing you can do but die"

08-09-2004, 09:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
DisgruntledOrangatang Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 893	Hence, oh wonderfully smartassed Warrik, why I fucking posted asking these questions...BECAUSE IM NOT IN BETA SO I WOULDN"T KNOW...makes sense foolbag? To hazinak, yes thats my point even (and especially( the ubers should have varied and viable options for equipment..not all locking into 'the best option' so as to waste time and effort put forth in creating other options that are not deemed 'best'. __________________ "Talk all you want, but when I say I'm going to kill you, there's nothing you can do but die"

08-09-2004, 09:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Fires of Heaven Officer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington Posts: 5,192 +17 Internets	While I agree that most people go towards the same gear choices, and there isn't really anything to make yourself different from other people gear wise... The only thing you're seeing is level 1-50 single group content. I don't expect much "uber" gear from those levels. If the same problems exist when we're level 60 and doing raids, then yeah, you have a concern. I think there are enough choices from 1-40... 40-50 however, not many choices, seeing as there's a lot of unfinished content for that level bracket. __________________

08-09-2004, 10:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
Fulorian Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 333 +0 Internets	Lets face it, the loot tables in Zul'Farrak and Sunken Temple are not very deep. Most 50s will have been to ST at least 5 or 6 times, probably more, enough to have most of what they want from there. Since they all want the same things, it leads to gear being very similar . I mean, theres what, 3 encounters that most people farm, and they have anywhere from 3 - 5 drops apiece, with 2 every time? Not counting the stat differences between the Dire Nail's from Erakinus and the Drakeclaw bands / orbs off the Dream Team. To be honest, luck has had more of a factor in those with 'better than average' gear than who you are, in that the only real variation is the ungodly rare purple items. Random shmuck with Dragon's Call and a spattering of all the good ST gear will be more powerful than a normal 50 in a top guild with a Felbane weapon. Edit: FoH and Afterlife don't really have vastly different gear from Joe 50 Blow, since at the moment theres not much 'skill' required. The only thing thats not terribly accessable to your average guy right now is Uniting the Shattered Amulet, which just means better trinkets for a few, which doesn't make that much difference. If you don't think that its horribly easy, Chief Ukorz Sandscalp of Zul'Farrak has been soloed. I've gotten him to 30% myself, without any potions... Last edited by Fulorian : 08-09-2004 at 11:23 PM.

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08-09-2004, 09:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Zeik-Retired Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 107 +0 Internets	Well at this point, where Hunters aren't in the game yet, and over half the classes don't have all of their skills and such, and the level cap isn't even raised to 60 yet... Do you really think they are worried about itemization?

08-09-2004, 09:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Hazinak Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 4 +0 Internets	I'm not in beta either, so I can't shed any light on the subject. You were looking at Afterlife and FoH profiles, right? These people are 100% achievers (scored from the old MUD survey) and dedicate 6 to 24 hours (not joking) each day to their games. They aren't going to settle for the second best equipment especially when they've been level capped for a month and nothing better to do. I'd bet if you checked a few level 30-something Joe-nobody profiles, there would be bigger equipment differences especially between horde and alliance. I do read often that quest rewards make people of certain levels look alike, but that always happens. The day after the crafted armor centaurs were put in South Karana every warrior was wearing blue.

08-09-2004, 11:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Widdles Mythic makes me cry :( Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 34 +0 Internets	Go look at high-end magelo profiles for EQ... especially pre-GoD where most people wore the same stuff. I do agree though if they are planning on skimping on the loot, it's a bad thing to do. EQ was so sucessful because there was always a next step up, whether it was a 100hp leap or a 5hp leap. MMOGs that have gone on the side of "less loot oriented" have failed horribly.... AC2, Planetside, etc. Even games that are "semi-loot" based (DAoC, SWG, AO, etc) arn't as successful.

08-09-2004, 11:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
Fadaar Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,886 -10 Internets	It IS Blizzard after all, the king of cookie cutter equipment and skill layouts, hell look at Diablo II.

08-09-2004, 11:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
Froofy-D upper management material Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,027 +8 Internets	Diablo2 is one of the best loot systems of any RPG ever.

08-10-2004, 12:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
Mippo Has a 2 inch dysfunctional penis Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 709 -45 Internets	That's a pretty nice generalization there. Not all of us play 6-24 hours a day. That's true in some cases, but some of us actually play less then your average players. We achieve goals more efficiently then your average player, thus our time investment is smaller since we get to the top faster.

08-10-2004, 12:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ukerric Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,192 -4 Internets	That's debatable. D2 operate on a pure random equipment generator. Any piece of equipment can drop from any "appropriate" monster. Except from the very top high-end stuff, whose "appropriate" monsters were a very limited set, seeing someone with a "Sword of X" (substitute whatever) gave you zero hint of where the item came from. The item generator was relatively good, but even then, the attributes that it placed on items were not very well balanced. At the same "level" of item, you had good ones and utterly worthless PoS, even if they had both one same "level" ability sticked on it. That's like LDoN augments: you get a +7 CON, a +7 AGI or a +7 vs cold augment, as if they were equivalent. What I would like to see is a good equipment generator. From a given boss, you'd always get a "350-pt item", which the generator would break into "110pt for +55hp" "84pt for +7 spirit", etc... Put a specific bias on boss, so Boss X of area Y will always generate 2 defensive modifiers, while Boss Z of area W will include 2 offense, and you'd get an interesting mix of variety with objectives to strive for ("I want some defensive items, I'd better go there"). Of course, the problem with generated stuff is that, it's not only random, it kills all the wonderful community-building that occurs around clearly identifiable items. Right now, someone says "Gloves of the Atal'Ai prophet", everyone arounds know exactly what he's speaking about. You might not need to click on the link to give the stats. It's a shared experience: you know what you're talking about. Make the items random, and nobody knows what your Gloves are. That's why the socketing/augment way is nice. It's a way of making your equipment different, while retaining the standardisation. Right now, in EQ, somebody can have exactly the same equipment you have... but completely different stats/resists/mana/hp/FT totals than you have, because he has different augments. Of course, with the advent of the augment removal, augments have become the 21st to 40th equipment slots, just another set of NODROP equipment. The slight strategy of picking a new piece of equipment and deciding if it was better than your old augmented one on its own, or worth picking because you expected to get an augment for it later... has vanished.

08-10-2004, 12:45 AM	#13 (permalink)
Iszwuun Fires of Heaven Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 97 +0 Internets	Blizzard went through the effort to add a (single) random property to numerous items in the game. Bard's bracer of Intillect comes to mind. Although i agree that more diversity is better, I wouldn't be suprised if Blizzard is saving items for release. Personally i would find it a bit discouraging if every item i got in release was the same thing i wore in beta. I had more to say but this vikodin is making my brain numb, maybe i'll remember later

08-10-2004, 01:34 AM	#15 (permalink)
Ashadelo Fires of Heaven Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Appleton, Wisconsin Posts: 30 +0 Internets	I don't want to sound like a dick or anything but do some of you people actually think before you post a thread? The game still has months to go before release and you know all the good gear likely WONT make it into beta (seeing as they said most of the raid content wont be in beta) so why even bother making this post when all the good high end gear prolly wont be seen till retail?