DAoC's fatal flaw, population imbalance?

[Dolalin]

http://vnboards.ign.com/Merlin/b20666/72484023/?371

An entire realm full of players on the Merlin server (Hibernia, actually) has decided to completely boycott Mythic's endgame, apparently due to there being a massive (20%) population advantage in Albion. The realm of Midgard will be joining tonight, so I hear. This is uniquely effective because two realms boycotting effectively stops the endgame on that server.

Population imbalance has been a major issue in DAoC since its inception, with one realm always being at a disadvantage, but the new RvR expansion has highlighted these problems by making keeps (castles) much harder for any realm to take, and much easier to defend, thereby handing the most populous realm the key to the server.

I have to wonder if the cause of population balance is hopeless? How do you make the teams even in Threeway CTF when you require massive character buy-in (hours invested in levels, gear, items)? Multiply this by making your server host 3,000 people every night, and you've got a hell of a problem on your hands. Nobody likes being perpetually outnumbered 2 to 1.

Quite the brave vision Mythic had making the endgame of their MMO a big CTF game, but they must have seen this coming.

[Lefazz]

A kludge fix would be to impement some sort of artificial bonus (or penalty) to realms that have a population imbalanced.

But, of course, people will start whining. So, yes, they're screwed.

And why do people want to play humans anyway? I found Midgard's and Hib races more interesting.

[Braen]

I know this prolly wouldn't be very popular, but I always thought that after a certain level of numbers advantage was reached, then at the realm selection screen for that server, the most numerous realm would not be selectable.

I know this might just make that people move to another server but the ones that would be on there would choose the lesser realm.

I know the biggest problem with this idea is that if a friend invited you to play, you couldn't just jump in if he was in the overpopulated realm.

Maybe they need to offer an incentive to move to a lesser realm. Sort of like EQ server moves but you could make a equally leveled character in another realm... Although measuring the level of equipment would be a tad difficult.

Perhaps also posting the popluations of the realms, they already post the population of the server, why not the realms?

[Iannis]

That's been a problem persisting for a long time. I believe Hib/Merlin was one of the realms who had the "/level 30" that attempted to attract people to playing it.

Of course, a /level 30 in DAoC was almost as impressive as a /level 30 in EQ: not very. Level 45+ is the ungodly grind, as well as the ToA abilities that are hard to get on low-pop realms. And less resources (people to group with. master craftsmen, rarity of having DF.)

didn't work so good. But they can't merge two servers, sooo.

I kinda got bored of New Frontiers quick. I can see how the low pops would be screwed with it though.

There has always been a sort of pendulum swinging. I think they've always been manipulating the RvR through selective "love" and "you're nerfed to FUCK now!" patches. That might just now finally be biting them on the ass since they messed with RvR.

[Jait]

So by Boycott you mean they're no longer paying Mythic for playing?


Oh wait. So Mythic still makes the same money regardless?


Very effective. I'm sure they'll listen. What's this?

I hear something. It sounds like Mythics answer!

YOU'VE GOT MAIL!

A letter from DaoC offering 14-days free to all previously cancelled accounts. They send these to 200,000 people, 10,000 come back. Less whining high-levels, more paying new subscribers.

http://www.comebacktocamelot.com/

Problem solved.

[ZeckEQ]

Think DAoC's fatal flaw is that it fucking blows goat dick.

[Awanka]

This is an interesting problem that I've been thinking about quite a bit since I got back into DAOC. The obvious extension to this question is how much will the same issues affect WoW? Not much I'm guessing since it's only a big deal if the main focus of your game is PvP, and Wow's isn't. In a game like DAOC or Shadowbane however, population is going to matter. I've heard several proposed solutions for this query, and they've all been social engineering type deals that try to shift people around the realms. I'm very dubious about the effectiveness of these suggestions because it's very difficult to control the people in an MMORPG. It's the last thing you should try to do, because you're trying to predict people's behavior, and people have always been the most unpredictable element in these types of games, 95% of the time they won't do what you want them to.

I think the best way to handle it, as far as DAOC is concerned, is to buff up the classes in those realms that are underpopulated. I know a lot of people are going to cry about fairness, but it seems perfectly fair to me. It's just like in Starcraft, Protoss had the fewest units, and the Zerg had the most, but the sides were relatively balanced because the power of the units was different. So for example, Albion would be like the Zerg, cheap but plentiful units, and Hibernia would be like the Protoss, few but powerful units, and in the end the realms would be balanced.

This is essentially what Mythic has done anyway, whether it was intended or not. Midguard and Hibernia have much better options than Albion's watered down classes. Midguard's melees and healers, and Hibernia's casters totally own Albion's. The only advantage Albion has is in the stealth war, including archery, which is what NF has turned into lately.

[Samus Aran]

I never played DAOC, but I have wondered how it will be handled in WoW. Artificial advantages, like buffs, for the other faction seem like short-term solutions.

I really think that horde and alliance should be able to band together in the endgame against some greater evil. I know that doesn't solve the pvp issue; I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Digo]

Buffing certain realms/classes won't work. While Albion may be king on some servers, they are the bitch on others.

[Awanka]

Originally posted by Digo
Buffing certain realms/classes won't work. While Albion may be king on some servers, they are the bitch on others.

Whatever algorithm is used for buffing realms would be dynamic and dependent upon the server's population.

[Froofy-D]

The only way to do it is what Braen suggested - once a realm has siginificant number advantage, no new accounts can make characters in that realm.

[findar]

this has been a problem since day 1.

if u were on lancelot... u knew alb = zerg(apparently bc we had 5:1 in #'s ), mid = overpowered(back b4 ae stun nerf'd), and hib = ass.



thats how it always was when i played. i sold my acc when the bulk started hitting 50, fun as it was it wasnt going to be balanced, ever. the #'s game is too hard.

[Ravensign]

How did they ever think they were going to balance so many classes against pve and pvp and make it all work out straight?

There should be 1/3 as many real classes and each realms version should be a 100% clone of the other 2's.

They have NEVER had class v. class and realm v. realm balance even close to stable. It changes all the time, you never know what's going to happen to your class next in DAoC.

On one hand, you want to respect them for caring enough to do radical changes, on the other, it never lets up. RA system could get ripped up, whole spell lines, whole class roles, all could just turn on a dime.

[Warrik]

This is a very well known and ooooollllllddd problem. Daoc had a great idea with its PvP in RvR....class imbalance and realm population was very poorly thougt out.

Darkness Falls was the one thing I will say was the most fun in Daoc......giving PvP a purpose, and then when your Realm lost control of it, you had a guaranteed mini war on your hands unless you fled the zone from the impending zerg of realm invaders.

I stopped playing Daco a long time ago.....but I still miss those times in DF.

[Shinrai]

Blizzard is smarter than mythic. Balance locally at the point of conflict, through instanced battlefields, rather than attempt to balance globally.

As for DaoC it's not particularly solvable. Giving PvP rewards tends to amplify imbalance. XP bonuses aren't needed because most of the people PvP'ing are capped anyway. limiting characters doesn't respect who's on and their RvR interest and capabilities.