What's more fun: Items or Character?

Samus Aran · 04-01-2004, 08:28 AM

Pardon if this is a dumb question, but this is my first mmorpg, so bear with me.

What's more fun for you? Creating a customizable, cool character with your skill/stat/talent points, or using customizable, cool items you loot and craft and buy?

What makes the game fun?

Diablo 2 is great to this day because of items. When I start a new character in D2, I go online and look up the best places to spend my character's... points... (hell, it's been a long time since I've played) to maximize its potential. So my character is basically just like everyone else's who have gone to that website and spent their points correctly. But what makes me uber is the items I collect. I used to spend hours on Meph runs.

So, I'm voting that customizing your character is fun and challenging, but what really counts is how cool your items are.

Whaddya think?

Tukwhump da Trollie · 04-01-2004, 08:31 AM

Hell yes. I could be level 10 and I would be happy if I had all sorts of flashy clicky shit.

Qalar-Drinal · 04-01-2004, 08:38 AM

Queer Eye for the Straight guy, MMOG style.

findar · 04-01-2004, 08:54 AM

my fun comes from the un-funning of others(is that a word?) basically causing mayhem, grief, general asshattery. sure the items are nice, characters are cool, but its usually what fits my personality the best as a class that makes the game fun.

that and cyber sex.

Samus Aran · 04-01-2004, 09:05 AM

I spent my money on cybersex and griefing. Sounds good.

Now that I think about it, items customize your character and make it ever-changing. I think I heard someone say that, as a Pally, he'd sometimes throw on a robe with + to mana and be more of a healer, or slip into his mail and do some tanking damage.

What fun is killing that uber high-level monster if the loot doesn't mean much?

Fammaden · 04-01-2004, 09:51 AM

All the hard work on your both your character's advancement and his gear pay off when you and your nightly group, be it 6 man xp or 72 man EQ zerg army, come together as a team and accomplish something challenging for the first time. That is why I like MMO's, teamwork. All the other shit is just bragging rights and/or could honestly be found, sometimes in a more enjoyable form, in single player RPGs.

Grayson Carlyle · 04-01-2004, 10:27 AM

I think it's just advancement as a whole.

Take your example Samus; Diablo II. I no longer try to advance my characters any longer (I play barbs and sorcs, nothing else), because I know exactly what I'm going to do with each one I create. However, this wasn't always true. At one point, I had a lot of fun trying to design a character that fit my play style and would completely rock at what I designed it to do.

I only had to recreate my barb 16 times to get it perfect.

Okay, so that was about 8 months of play. The initial experimentation was fun, because noone knew how to build the perfect barb. Hell, people thought WW sucked at first cause it reduced damage output. Once that exploration was over, that book was closed. From there out, it was only items. You can only take your char so far in D2, but there's so much luck involved in item finding that maybe a dozen or so of the most hardcore players (not in the D2 sense) will eventually be satisfied with their gear (some 8 years later).

That was Diablo's replayability though. MMOs generally have far more static equipment. I'm not sure why every EQ player screamed about WoW having some randomization to the drops. Yes, I understand that after an 18 hour raid, you'd like to be fairly rewarded for your time. But you still need that carrot at the end of the stick. If you don't include randomization, then advancement relies entirely on characters.

Character advancement can be a driving force, but it requires skills that get stronger as you use them, unlearnable skills and a limited selection from a very large choice of abilities. Each character level would be limited to a number of skill points. By using some skills often enough, they can gain a skill point. If you have reached your maximum skill points, then consequently, your least used skill will lose a skill point. This can't take more than say 36 hours of actual game time to switch. But then this requires incredible amounts of balancing so that all skills with equal invested time will be equally useful. Say you could have 5 full powered skills at once (or if you're a good balancer, 10 half-powered skills) out of 30. If you wanted to mix up each, you'd have 5P30 different combinations to work on, to find out which works best: 30!/25! = 17100720. Switching one skill at a time, that would take 615625920 manhours, or 1368 manhours for every person playing Everquest.

Character advancement is possible, and a small scale example would be Warcraft III. The heroes only have 3 choices at level 1, but they're all viable enough that individual choice will vary greatly. It will most depend on the situation. So taking that to an MMO, you'd have people specializing in a certain role their character could play. Having 2 warriors built completely differently could greatly increase the power of a party.

So, after all that, I think it could easily come down to both character and item advancement. It's just that item advancement is much easier to implement than character advancement.

Froofy-D · 04-01-2004, 10:29 AM

For me the main draws of RPGs are:

min/maxing: making your character the best it can be via strategic stats/gear/skills allocation. I think a lot of people enjoy this to a certain extent, and if a game has meaningless stats and/or gear this is negated.

Quote:

All the hard work on your both your character's advancement and his gear pay off when you and your nightly group, be it 6 man xp or 72 man EQ zerg army, come together as a team and accomplish something challenging for the first time

I think that sense of accomplishment is the other main draw for MMOGs as well (at least for me). Preferably the 72 man zerg raids be kept at a minimum though. It is much more satisfying to do something with 1 group, where indivdiual contribution actually means something.

Dyscord · 04-01-2004, 10:31 AM

You need both. But under the current system, loot by far is more important than your character.

Yes, having a cool customized player is important. My troll is gonna have huge tusks and the biggest mohawk he can get. And that will make me happy. He might be the baddest shaman to ever plop down a healing ward.

But it can only take you so far. The way things go, there's always only 'one way' to play a character if your going to min-max him. Which everyone does. And there really is no uniqueness in how I customized my facial features. Everyone can pick the same ones if they wanted to.

It all boils down to your loot. It affects the cool cloths you wear. It affects how other people view you. Someone running around in all black armor with a glowing sword of dismemberment is way cooler than dorky mcjoe in his bronze armor. After a while, everyone is level 65. Level is available to everyone, given enough time. Loot is the divider. Loot deterimines the men from the boys. It determines who sits around all day macking with the manginas and who goes out and kicks some ass and knows how to get his.

Loot all the way baby

Oakman · 04-01-2004, 10:43 AM

Loot. I like being able to distinguish myself by having better gear than joe-no-guild-but-lots-of-time.

FoghornDeadhorn · 04-01-2004, 11:12 AM

I've been wanting to start good threads lately, but all of them have had something to do with drinking....

I'm down with both. I like the concept in WoW of the rare trainers, and hopefully the Hero system giving you real senses of satisfaction from developing your character independent of gear, with a sense of accomplishment that is separate from the grind. For example, I was just telling my hott baby how cool it was of Blizzard to have you start with such minimum slots for equipment, because leveling up will have yet another set of plateaus that will give you a sense of satisfaction as you're working your way up the levels: "Hey, I'm level 12, I have blahblah slot open to me now!" "Yay, I'm level 24, I have helm slot open!" "WOOOOOOOO!!!! I'm 40 TIME FOR A MOUNT!!!!!" All of these things are good, including passing the level restrictions on items...

Speaking of items, I love teh phat lewtz. Loot is very important to your sense of satisfaction. It gives you something "tangible" to be happy about, other players to be envious of, and ideally another set of choices to make.

[Edit] Oakman = guilded lootwhore. Superhealerr?

Intrinsic · 04-01-2004, 11:15 AM

Having new shiny items is fun.

Fun is not, having new shiny items.

Not really sure if that makes any sense.

Samus Aran · 04-01-2004, 11:28 AM

Okay, everyone who's adding OTHER THINGS to the equation, quiddat! I know the great pull of mmorpgs is the, I don't know, fellowship, the brotherhood, the uh... victory... dragon... slaying...

Follow along. You're at level cap. Would you be more likely to say, "Hey, I'm at level cap! Time to go see what those uber monsters drop!" Or, "Hey, I'm at level cap! Time to start a new character and see what a new set of stats does!"

FoghornDeadhorn · 04-01-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Intrinsic
Having new shiny items is fun.

Fun is not, having new shiny items.

Not really sure if that makes any sense.

That makes total sense. I vote for you as President. Fuck having your only goal be PHAT LEWTZ. Fuck having your fun be socializing with your guild. Fuck logging on to see your stats, and pulling Frozen Moses just so you can defeat AoW -- I mean, what the fuck is with that? The Bible doesn't even exist in EQ. What's next -- Krishna defeating Thrall? I've got some news for you: Vishnu doesn't give a shit about Norrath or Azeroth. When I go through the Dark Portal I expect hookers, and the MMO equivalent of Total Annihiltion -- 255 units per side. You heard that right, bitch. It's not a zerg raid when 150 of them are metal extractors, is it?!?

Dyscord · 04-01-2004, 11:35 AM

When your at the level cap, loot becomes even more important. Starting a new twink is fun and all, but it takes away from what makes an MMORPG so interesting, its persistance.

Everquest is called EVERquest, not I'mDoneTimeToRestartANewCharacterQuest. Look continues the game further than restarting all over again. Basically, if you do that, its almost exactly like restarting a single player game on a new difficulty level. Sure the game is harder, or more interesting, but its still the same game you just played. Keeping the loot as the constant upward spiral keeps people from being forced to restart the game on 'warrior' level, etc.

04-01-2004, 08:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
Samus Aran Sons of the Storm Heal Bitch Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 771 +1 Internets	What's more fun: Items or Character? Pardon if this is a dumb question, but this is my first mmorpg, so bear with me. What's more fun for you? Creating a customizable, cool character with your skill/stat/talent points, or using customizable, cool items you loot and craft and buy? What makes the game fun? Diablo 2 is great to this day because of items. When I start a new character in D2, I go online and look up the best places to spend my character's... points... (hell, it's been a long time since I've played) to maximize its potential. So my character is basically just like everyone else's who have gone to that website and spent their points correctly. But what makes me uber is the items I collect. I used to spend hours on Meph runs. So, I'm voting that customizing your character is fun and challenging, but what really counts is how cool your items are. Whaddya think?

04-01-2004, 08:54 AM	#4 (permalink)
findar Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,297 -3 Internets	my fun comes from the un-funning of others(is that a word?) basically causing mayhem, grief, general asshattery. sure the items are nice, characters are cool, but its usually what fits my personality the best as a class that makes the game fun. that and cyber sex. __________________ -its clobbering time

04-01-2004, 09:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
Fammaden Treats objects like women. Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Posts: 2,648 +4 Internets	All the hard work on your both your character's advancement and his gear pay off when you and your nightly group, be it 6 man xp or 72 man EQ zerg army, come together as a team and accomplish something challenging for the first time. That is why I like MMO's, teamwork. All the other shit is just bragging rights and/or could honestly be found, sometimes in a more enjoyable form, in single player RPGs. __________________ Fammaden - Wizard - Saryrn (Retired) WoW: Shaman/Mage/Hunter/Paladin

04-01-2004, 11:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
FoghornDeadhorn Avarice Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Rolling down Rodeo with a shotgun Posts: 3,687 +14 Internets	Samus is on a roll I've been wanting to start good threads lately, but all of them have had something to do with drinking.... I'm down with both. I like the concept in WoW of the rare trainers, and hopefully the Hero system giving you real senses of satisfaction from developing your character independent of gear, with a sense of accomplishment that is separate from the grind. For example, I was just telling my hott baby how cool it was of Blizzard to have you start with such minimum slots for equipment, because leveling up will have yet another set of plateaus that will give you a sense of satisfaction as you're working your way up the levels: "Hey, I'm level 12, I have blahblah slot open to me now!" "Yay, I'm level 24, I have helm slot open!" "WOOOOOOOO!!!! I'm 40 TIME FOR A MOUNT!!!!!" All of these things are good, including passing the level restrictions on items... Speaking of items, I love teh phat lewtz. Loot is very important to your sense of satisfaction. It gives you something "tangible" to be happy about, other players to be envious of, and ideally another set of choices to make. [Edit] Oakman = guilded lootwhore. Superhealerr? __________________ Last edited by FoghornDeadhorn : 04-01-2004 at 11:14 AM.

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04-01-2004, 08:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
Tukwhump da Trollie Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 418 -1 Internets	Hell yes. I could be level 10 and I would be happy if I had all sorts of flashy clicky shit.

04-01-2004, 08:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
Qalar-Drinal Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pullman WA Posts: 348 -4 Internets	Queer Eye for the Straight guy, MMOG style.

04-01-2004, 09:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
Samus Aran Sons of the Storm Heal Bitch Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 771 +1 Internets	I spent my money on cybersex and griefing. Sounds good. Now that I think about it, items customize your character and make it ever-changing. I think I heard someone say that, as a Pally, he'd sometimes throw on a robe with + to mana and be more of a healer, or slip into his mail and do some tanking damage. What fun is killing that uber high-level monster if the loot doesn't mean much?

04-01-2004, 10:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
Grayson Carlyle Warrior of Blackhand Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Blackhand Posts: 663 +0 Internets	I think it's just advancement as a whole. Take your example Samus; Diablo II. I no longer try to advance my characters any longer (I play barbs and sorcs, nothing else), because I know exactly what I'm going to do with each one I create. However, this wasn't always true. At one point, I had a lot of fun trying to design a character that fit my play style and would completely rock at what I designed it to do. I only had to recreate my barb 16 times to get it perfect. Okay, so that was about 8 months of play. The initial experimentation was fun, because noone knew how to build the perfect barb. Hell, people thought WW sucked at first cause it reduced damage output. Once that exploration was over, that book was closed. From there out, it was only items. You can only take your char so far in D2, but there's so much luck involved in item finding that maybe a dozen or so of the most hardcore players (not in the D2 sense) will eventually be satisfied with their gear (some 8 years later). That was Diablo's replayability though. MMOs generally have far more static equipment. I'm not sure why every EQ player screamed about WoW having some randomization to the drops. Yes, I understand that after an 18 hour raid, you'd like to be fairly rewarded for your time. But you still need that carrot at the end of the stick. If you don't include randomization, then advancement relies entirely on characters. Character advancement can be a driving force, but it requires skills that get stronger as you use them, unlearnable skills and a limited selection from a very large choice of abilities. Each character level would be limited to a number of skill points. By using some skills often enough, they can gain a skill point. If you have reached your maximum skill points, then consequently, your least used skill will lose a skill point. This can't take more than say 36 hours of actual game time to switch. But then this requires incredible amounts of balancing so that all skills with equal invested time will be equally useful. Say you could have 5 full powered skills at once (or if you're a good balancer, 10 half-powered skills) out of 30. If you wanted to mix up each, you'd have 5P30 different combinations to work on, to find out which works best: 30!/25! = 17100720. Switching one skill at a time, that would take 615625920 manhours, or 1368 manhours for every person playing Everquest. Character advancement is possible, and a small scale example would be Warcraft III. The heroes only have 3 choices at level 1, but they're all viable enough that individual choice will vary greatly. It will most depend on the situation. So taking that to an MMO, you'd have people specializing in a certain role their character could play. Having 2 warriors built completely differently could greatly increase the power of a party. So, after all that, I think it could easily come down to both character and item advancement. It's just that item advancement is much easier to implement than character advancement.

04-01-2004, 10:31 AM	#9 (permalink)
Dyscord Harvey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Command Carrier Posts: 1,847 +6 Internets	You need both. But under the current system, loot by far is more important than your character. Yes, having a cool customized player is important. My troll is gonna have huge tusks and the biggest mohawk he can get. And that will make me happy. He might be the baddest shaman to ever plop down a healing ward. But it can only take you so far. The way things go, there's always only 'one way' to play a character if your going to min-max him. Which everyone does. And there really is no uniqueness in how I customized my facial features. Everyone can pick the same ones if they wanted to. It all boils down to your loot. It affects the cool cloths you wear. It affects how other people view you. Someone running around in all black armor with a glowing sword of dismemberment is way cooler than dorky mcjoe in his bronze armor. After a while, everyone is level 65. Level is available to everyone, given enough time. Loot is the divider. Loot deterimines the men from the boys. It determines who sits around all day macking with the manginas and who goes out and kicks some ass and knows how to get his. Loot all the way baby

04-01-2004, 10:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
Oakman Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 462 -2 Internets	Loot. I like being able to distinguish myself by having better gear than joe-no-guild-but-lots-of-time.

04-01-2004, 11:15 AM	#12 (permalink)
Intrinsic is More and Faster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 400 +0 Internets	Having new shiny items is fun. Fun is not, having new shiny items. Not really sure if that makes any sense.

04-01-2004, 11:28 AM	#13 (permalink)
Samus Aran Sons of the Storm Heal Bitch Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 771 +1 Internets	Okay, everyone who's adding OTHER THINGS to the equation, quiddat! I know the great pull of mmorpgs is the, I don't know, fellowship, the brotherhood, the uh... victory... dragon... slaying... Follow along. You're at level cap. Would you be more likely to say, "Hey, I'm at level cap! Time to go see what those uber monsters drop!" Or, "Hey, I'm at level cap! Time to start a new character and see what a new set of stats does!"

04-01-2004, 11:35 AM	#15 (permalink)
Dyscord Harvey Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Command Carrier Posts: 1,847 +6 Internets	When your at the level cap, loot becomes even more important. Starting a new twink is fun and all, but it takes away from what makes an MMORPG so interesting, its persistance. Everquest is called EVERquest, not I'mDoneTimeToRestartANewCharacterQuest. Look continues the game further than restarting all over again. Basically, if you do that, its almost exactly like restarting a single player game on a new difficulty level. Sure the game is harder, or more interesting, but its still the same game you just played. Keeping the loot as the constant upward spiral keeps people from being forced to restart the game on 'warrior' level, etc.