Frontline: Sick Around the World

[Soriak]

Opened a thread about this in the TV Forum, but I wanted to bring it to the attention of people who don't check that forum. It's a political topic after all...

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/milli...und-world.html

[Sunder]

Despite a huge private insurance business, a law called LAMal was passed, which set up a universal health care system that, among other things, restricted insurance companies from making a profit on basic medical care.

A bill like that would never pass in this country. The insurance companies would throw bags of money at both political parties to ensure something like that never saw the light of day.

[Phoenix]

I have a solution to this problem, its called working for your god damn self and dont expect uncle sam to come wipe your ass every time youre too fucking stupid to do it yourself.

[Lithose]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I have a solution to this problem, its called working for your god damn self and dont expect uncle sam to come wipe your ass every time youre too fucking stupid to do it yourself.

Indeed, so the patient who gets stage 4 lung, brain or stomach cancer and is dying, can't even walk, is somehow at fault because he took too long to die?

Its not all cut and dry..I am against universal as much as the next person, but providing basic health care and catastrophic coverage will lessen the over-all expense of health care, not increase it.

[AladainAF]

Indeed, so the patient who gets stage 4 lung, brain or stomach cancer and is dying, can't even walk, is somehow at fault because he took too long to die?

Pretty much yeah. The same people that want us to get universal health care have no problem pulling life support off vegetables, and people that you described above.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by AladainAF

The same people that want us to get universal health care have no problem pulling life support off vegetables...

Of course not. If you're in a permanent vegetative state, there's no chance of recovery. It's like keeping someone who's brain dead on a machine...

It's ok though, I doubt your private insurance covers that either.

[AladainAF]

If you're in a permanent vegetative state, there's no chance of recovery.

The New England Journal of Medicine disagrees, but whatever. Thats for another thread. (you can find the full article on the net at your leisure instead of paying from the NEJM)

[spronk]

USA spends more on healthcare than any other country in the world (both in total terms and per capita) and has some of the lowest living standards (life expectancy, obesity, diabetes rates, infant mortality, etc) in western nations. So yeah, we can keep doing the same ol' shit and hope something magically changes or try to make things better.

Prob half the people reading these forums are healthy. We eat right, exercise, perform preventative healthcare (checkups, exams, vitamins, etc). The other half, and at least 50% of America, don't. It is infinitely more expensive to wait until someone has diabetes, high blood pressure, etc, etc and then try to "fix" them than it is to get someone to have healthy eating and living habits from a young age.

And thats really what universal health care is all about. No matter how poor you are, you don't skip medical checkups and such because you can't afford it. You go in, get the right advice, and hopefully follow through. Obviously lots of people are still going to stick to the MickeyD and lard diet, but the more people we can convince to live healthier the cheaper it gets overall. Its not about giving everyone access to lipo, or breast implants, or $1 million worth of aids drugs - its ensuring no one ever has to think "hmmm.... go see the doctor or buy food this week?"

It is pretty retarded that the worlds "richest" country has 50 million+ uninsured people, most of whom basically go without any health checkups until something goes wrong. We take better care of our cars and electronics in America than ourselves.

[Manseed]

The problem with health care is that it covers too much. Health care should only cover catastrophic issues, like you got in a car accident or found out you have cancer. It shouldn't cover every doctor's visit you feel you deserve.

Basically, because of this, people go to the doctor over anything. Since you're spending someone else's money, who cares? Also, the doctors can charge an outrageous price for that visit because of this fact. So there is no competition on the prices. In the end the insurance providers are screwing themselves.

[Manseed]

Originally Posted by spronk

USA spends more on healthcare than any other country in the world (both in total terms and per capita) and has some of the lowest living standards (life expectancy, obesity, diabetes rates, infant mortality, etc) in western nations. So yeah, we can keep doing the same ol' shit and hope something magically changes or try to make things better.

Prob half the people reading these forums are healthy. We eat right, exercise, perform preventative healthcare (checkups, exams, vitamins, etc). The other half, and at least 50% of America, don't. It is infinitely more expensive to wait until someone has diabetes, high blood pressure, etc, etc and then try to "fix" them than it is to get someone to have healthy eating and living habits from a young age.

And thats really what universal health care is all about. No matter how poor you are, you don't skip medical checkups and such because you can't afford it. You go in, get the right advice, and hopefully follow through. Obviously lots of people are still going to stick to the MickeyD and lard diet, but the more people we can convince to live healthier the cheaper it gets overall. Its not about giving everyone access to lipo, or breast implants, or $1 million worth of aids drugs - its ensuring no one ever has to think "hmmm.... go see the doctor or buy food this week?"

It is pretty retarded that the worlds "richest" country has 50 million+ uninsured people, most of whom basically go without any health checkups until something goes wrong. We take better care of our cars and electronics in America than ourselves.

So let's say that the government comes in and takes control here. We just eliminated any competition in the medical industry. The government pays a flat rate for everyone's medical visit, so why should any doctor try to be better than any other? The government pays a flat rate for all of these medications for everyone, so why should the drug companies even attempt to make better drugs?

That is why it won't work.

Why do you people keep insisting on giving the government more power. Leave these things up to private industry.

Let's not forget that the government runs the only retirement plan in town where you actually lose money.

[Soriak]

Originally Posted by Manseed

Let's not forget that the government runs the only retirement plan in town where you actually lose money.

Companies filing for chapter 11 don't count? As part of their restructuring, pensions are the first thing to get hit.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Manseed

Let's not forget that the government runs the only retirement plan in town where you actually lose money.

Dont you even dare bring up the paradigm of government short sightedness and corruption, Social Security. Social Security just proves the government should be incharge of even more tens of billions of dollars.

Why, why the fuck do you think the US government should haves it's responsibility expanded when we have the shinning epic failure that is SS?! Seriously, what for one god damn minute makes you think that somehow universal healthcare will turn out better ran compared to SS? Name me one god damn social program in the history of the US that has not turned out to become an ungodly burdened of unbelievable proportions(medicare/socialsecurity both cost more money than our military) to US citizens?

Answer me that, then we can get back onto the whole why I should I be wiping other people's asses.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Manseed

So let's say that the government comes in and takes control here. We just eliminated any competition in the medical industry. The government pays a flat rate for everyone's medical visit, so why should any doctor try to be better than any other? The government pays a flat rate for all of these medications for everyone, so why should the drug companies even attempt to make better drugs?

That is why it won't work.

Why do you people keep insisting on giving the government more power. Leave these things up to private industry.

Let's not forget that the government runs the only retirement plan in town where you actually lose money.

I always like the people who bring up that the government is incompetent and that it should be controlled by private corporations for the maximum benefit. Then you consider that other countries with higher standards of life expectancy, lower sickness rates and cheaper healthcare…are run by our governments. So really, what you’re saying is that your private corporations are run worse than our governments. It’s pretty amusing.

So what does that say about you guys?

[Phoenix]

Yeah, because as we all know, Europe is in charge of the United States. I dont know shit about the history of various European counties governments in regards to their policies and how they manage them, but I damn sure know what the United States hasnt been exactly good at running Social Security.

Also, you ever care to think of the sheer amount of taxes incurred by European socialism?

[Zerai]

All I know is the taxes I pay up here isn't any more than taxes you pay down there.