Writers' Strike, Cont: Studios Back Out of Negotiations - Page 7

Arbitrary · 12-13-2007, 03:27 PM

You can site exceptions all day and rant about the American Dream, hardwork, and determination, but the big picture is +1.

Gaereth · 12-13-2007, 03:44 PM

But is that because of lack of opportunity?

I don't think so.

chaos · 12-13-2007, 03:45 PM

You really think that Jamaal in the projects has all the same opportunity as Bill Gates? Come on man.

Arbitrary · 12-13-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaereth

But is that because of lack of opportunity?

I don't think so.

Imagine growing up poor and going to a high school with a 50% or greater failure rate, of which there are tons.

Kolle · 12-13-2007, 04:23 PM

Lack of opportunity is exactly it. Every adult in the USA can't have a great paying job right now. Even if they all had the right attitude. For the people who do succeed...their success is completely dependent on the failure of others.

Our country and way of life has predetermined that a large number of people must fail. It will continue being that way until extreme changes are made.

Gaereth · 12-13-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

You really think that Jamaal in the projects has all the same opportunity as Bill Gates? Come on man.

There is a difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity.

Arbitrary · 12-13-2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaereth

There is a difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity.

Equality of outcome. Hmm. Ok.

We'll run a race. One mile, four laps. Except, I get a one-and-a-half lap head start. Now, the outcome for each of us is equal. I may win, you may win. If you work hard enough you'll have no problem overcoming my advantage.

Gaereth · 12-13-2007, 05:00 PM

hmm...well...I think you have it backwards. The race would be equality of opportunity...having both win would be equality of outcome. You both have the opportunity to run the race, it doesn't matter if one has to overcome more hurdles to get to the start...you both can do the race.

Is it fair?? No.
Is it life?? Yes.

Arbitrary · 12-13-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaereth

hmm...well...I think you have it backwards. The race would be equality of opportunity...having both win would be equality of outcome. You both have the opportunity to run the race, it doesn't matter if one has to overcome more hurdles to get to the start...you both can do the race.

Is it fair?? No.
Is it life?? Yes.

Life is neither fair no unfair. Life is arbitrary. Only people are capable of having that quality.

So tell me, which are you?

chaos · 12-13-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaereth

hmm...well...I think you have it backwards. The race would be equality of opportunity...having both win would be equality of outcome. You both have the opportunity to run the race, it doesn't matter if one has to overcome more hurdles to get to the start...you both can do the race.

Is it fair?? No.
Is it life?? Yes.

Participation doesn't equal equality. We aren't even in the same race as people like Gates, we aren't even in the same sport. We're the niggers and they are the masters, to be crude about it. Whatever man, I live my life and I don't regret it. But I don't have any illusions about the good governnment equal opportunity bullshit we were taught in school.

Kolle · 12-13-2007, 05:43 PM

If you want to compare American life to a race then the track is a narrow one. Maybe you all have the chance to finish, but it is impossible to all finish at once.

Not every person can be bill gates. It's not possible. Someone will still be flipping burgers and scrubbing toilets for minimum wage. That job will still exist even if 100% of everyone fully applies themselves and does everything perfectly right. Typical speeches about people being lazy does not apply. Even if laziness didn't exist there's only so many good jobs.

Yutnopash · 12-13-2007, 05:52 PM

Here's a nice look at the PR/Walkout the AMPTP put together a week+ ago...

Regarding the AMPTP releasing a press release just 20 minutes after storming out of negotiations (again) and demanding the WGA drop six issues or else the companies "petulantly won't even talk," Elisberg writes...

"This is important. The press release appeared after 20 minutes. We're dealing with nine corporations here on the board. To get approvals from nine multinational conglomerates, nine PR departments, nine CEOs - until it's right - this takes more than 20 minutes. It takes many days. Which means the corporations knew before sitting down to negotiate that they had no intention to negotiate. That they knew they were going to blame everything on the "six issues" and then storm out in a hissy fit.

Which means the "six issues" aren't issues at all. It just means the AMPTP corporations wanted to cause dissension among the writers and see if it took hold, get enough people to buy the spin and become all flibberty-gibberty terrified."

Furthermore, Elisberg states...

"...when one side demands you remove six items before they'll talk...you simply can't do it. If you do, the negotiation is over. You lose. Go to jail, do not collect the $250. The Guild tried that once, removing the 4-cents DVD increase because the AMPTP demanded it. And the AMPTP corporations didn't change one thing. What they did do is walk out of the room. (Sound familiar?) So, that didn't work out too well. And removing six items now because the AMPTP "demands it" would work out worse."

We all know that there's a lot of worry and anger out there -- members, crew, everyone who's striking or been put out of work by the strike is vulnerable to the AMPTP's fear tactics. But the problem here is a simple one: they issued an ultimatum and walked away from the table.

P.S. Can we get a separate thread in general or some shit where people can argue over Union practices in American History, Equal opportunity stuff exclusively?

Arbitrary · 12-13-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yutnopash

P.S. Can we get a separate thread in general or some shit where people can argue over Union practices in American History, Equal opportunity stuff exclusively?

Natural ebb and flow of a message board thread.

Cad · 12-13-2007, 06:29 PM

You don't need flat screen TV's, Benzes, Computers and Internet, and 16 hours of leisure time per day to be "making it" in the USA. It is absolutely 100% possible to live within your means making $25k/yr (well below median) and raise a family.

My wife's family arrived in the US with nothing in 1979, through hard work 3 of her siblings are in medical school, she has an MBA and is doing great; father is basically a machinist and her mother has always been a homemaker.

Yet you say it's not possible to improve your lot in life in this country.

I say it's nothing more complicated than stupidity, stupidly using your funds, stupidly allocating your time and stupidly inattentive to the things that will allow you to succeed. You can't fix stupidity through social programs. The US is fine.

Arbitrary · 12-13-2007, 07:19 PM

We'd be much better off if people knew the difference between what they wanted and what made them happy versus what they are told they want and what they are told will make them happy.

12-13-2007, 05:43 PM	#101 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	If you want to compare American life to a race then the track is a narrow one. Maybe you all have the chance to finish, but it is impossible to all finish at once. Not every person can be bill gates. It's not possible. Someone will still be flipping burgers and scrubbing toilets for minimum wage. That job will still exist even if 100% of everyone fully applies themselves and does everything perfectly right. Typical speeches about people being lazy does not apply. Even if laziness didn't exist there's only so many good jobs. Last edited by Kolle; 12-13-2007 at 05:46 PM..

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12-13-2007, 03:44 PM	#92 (permalink)
Gaereth Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 826 -4 Internets	But is that because of lack of opportunity? I don't think so.

12-13-2007, 03:45 PM	#93 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	You really think that Jamaal in the projects has all the same opportunity as Bill Gates? Come on man.

12-13-2007, 04:23 PM	#95 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	Lack of opportunity is exactly it. Every adult in the USA can't have a great paying job right now. Even if they all had the right attitude. For the people who do succeed...their success is completely dependent on the failure of others. Our country and way of life has predetermined that a large number of people must fail. It will continue being that way until extreme changes are made.

12-13-2007, 05:00 PM	#98 (permalink)
Gaereth Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 826 -4 Internets	hmm...well...I think you have it backwards. The race would be equality of opportunity...having both win would be equality of outcome. You both have the opportunity to run the race, it doesn't matter if one has to overcome more hurdles to get to the start...you both can do the race. Is it fair?? No. Is it life?? Yes.

12-13-2007, 05:52 PM	#102 (permalink)
Yutnopash The Mexicant Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,148 +10 Internets	Here's a nice look at the PR/Walkout the AMPTP put together a week+ ago... Regarding the AMPTP releasing a press release just 20 minutes after storming out of negotiations (again) and demanding the WGA drop six issues or else the companies "petulantly won't even talk," Elisberg writes... "This is important. The press release appeared after 20 minutes. We're dealing with nine corporations here on the board. To get approvals from nine multinational conglomerates, nine PR departments, nine CEOs - until it's right - this takes more than 20 minutes. It takes many days. Which means the corporations knew before sitting down to negotiate that they had no intention to negotiate. That they knew they were going to blame everything on the "six issues" and then storm out in a hissy fit. Which means the "six issues" aren't issues at all. It just means the AMPTP corporations wanted to cause dissension among the writers and see if it took hold, get enough people to buy the spin and become all flibberty-gibberty terrified." Furthermore, Elisberg states... "...when one side demands you remove six items before they'll talk...you simply can't do it. If you do, the negotiation is over. You lose. Go to jail, do not collect the $250. The Guild tried that once, removing the 4-cents DVD increase because the AMPTP demanded it. And the AMPTP corporations didn't change one thing. What they did do is walk out of the room. (Sound familiar?) So, that didn't work out too well. And removing six items now because the AMPTP "demands it" would work out worse." We all know that there's a lot of worry and anger out there -- members, crew, everyone who's striking or been put out of work by the strike is vulnerable to the AMPTP's fear tactics. But the problem here is a simple one: they issued an ultimatum and walked away from the table. P.S. Can we get a separate thread in general or some shit where people can argue over Union practices in American History, Equal opportunity stuff exclusively?

12-13-2007, 06:29 PM	#104 (permalink)
Cad Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 6,678 -38 Internets	You don't need flat screen TV's, Benzes, Computers and Internet, and 16 hours of leisure time per day to be "making it" in the USA. It is absolutely 100% possible to live within your means making $25k/yr (well below median) and raise a family. My wife's family arrived in the US with nothing in 1979, through hard work 3 of her siblings are in medical school, she has an MBA and is doing great; father is basically a machinist and her mother has always been a homemaker. Yet you say it's not possible to improve your lot in life in this country. I say it's nothing more complicated than stupidity, stupidly using your funds, stupidly allocating your time and stupidly inattentive to the things that will allow you to succeed. You can't fix stupidity through social programs. The US is fine.