Religulous

[Yutnopash]

Originally Posted by mek

Here you guys, enjoy your philosophy class.

Robert C. Koons: Phl 327 Lecture #21

Cant learn anything from a guy with that last name..much too distracting.

[Burkex]

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the founding fathers of our country were very clear on seperation of church and state but with every election we see religion is a HUGE factor and sometimes the deciding factor in choosing who we want as our elected officials. Sadly it will never happen but I look forward to the day where religion never will never influence an election.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Sharmai

Wow your all doing it wrong. God by definition is super natural. Thereby outside the laws of nature and of course the logic of man. Meaning yes he can make a rock to heavy for him to lift yet still lift it at the same time. No it does not make logical sense. God is not bound to the logic of man.


And I am not even a believer and I came up with that years ago..

There is almost nothing that can be said about an omnipotent God of that nature. He is unknowable.

[voodoochile78]

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[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Burkex

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the founding fathers of our country were very clear on seperation of church and state but with every election we see religion is a HUGE factor and sometimes the deciding factor in choosing who we want as our elected officials. Sadly it will never happen but I look forward to the day where religion never will never influence an election.

I don't know if separating church and state was as big a deal when everyone running for office or able to vote was white, protestant, and a man. The founding fathers may have assumed they were getting all those eggs from the same basket.

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Coren

There's nothing in the Bible that claims that God is above his own word. Thus there's nothing to reconcile. Basicly I'm stating that those 3 points simply fail to give the whole picture. (Nor am I really denying 1...there's just more to it than that.).

Wait, so as I understand you, you are saying that God can set up rules for himself and nothing in the bible says God can break those rules he set, it might even promise that God will not break his word (I honestly dont know). In light of this the notion of God being all powerful can include God not being able to do certain things because of rules he set. Thats how you handle the create a rock so big he cant lift it question.

But granting that sort of omnipitence still doesnt jive with 3. If God is all good , and God is all knowing (which was left out of the original 3 but should be up there) then he A) knows how any rules he set will turn out through all time and B) would not set rules that allowed for amount of evil we see in the world.

Even if God can make rules that he can not break with out detracting from his omnipitence it still does not follow that an all good, all knowing good could make rules that allowed for evil.

Thats why free will is an attractive rebuttal. If you argue one of God's ground rules was we had to have free will then evil becomes an agent of man outside of God's hands.

Would you say God can make 2+2=5 or no?

[Coren]

Originally Posted by Simas

Thats why free will is an attractive rebuttal. If you argue one of God's ground rules was we had to have free will then evil becomes an agent of man outside of God's hands.

That seeming to be the central part of the post I'll answer that fast - The Bible is clear that when God created, well, everything that it was perfect; including Lucifer and that iniquity was later found in him. So yes, it's simply that Lucifer chose to go bad, and later drug Man down with him.

Same with mankind. The Bible is quite clear that God created Man to be very much like him; that the reason God created Adam in the first place is to have a being on his own level to commune with. (Mankind ranks higher than the Angels according to the Bible).

Would you say God can make 2+2=5 or no?

In a word, no. But my views on God's omnipotence is probably far beyond the scope of trying to explain here hehe.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Coren

That seeming to be the central part of the post I'll answer that fast - The Bible is clear that when God created, well, everything that it was perfect; including Lucifer and that iniquity was later found in him. So yes, it's simply that Lucifer chose to go bad, and later drug Man down with him.

Same with mankind. The Bible is quite clear that God created Man to be very much like him; that the reason God created Adam in the first place is to have a being on his own level to commune with. (Mankind ranks higher than the Angels according to the Bible).



In a word, no. But my views on God's omnipotence is probably far beyond the scope of trying to explain here hehe.

You are aware pretty much everything you have just mentioned is not in the bible in any remote fucking way. And is based solely on radical interpretations many many centuries later? The word "Lucifer" is used one time in the bible. And its usage is not in reference to a fucking angel.

How one can try to "literally" interpret a book in the first place contains a mere fraction of the available gospels. Was created/edited to conform to the current teachings of time period. And is used to twist and manipulate the stupid for centuries is beyond me.

Why does religious have to be synonymous with idiot? You don't have to discard your fucking brain to have faith.

[Coren]

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

You are aware pretty much everything you have just mentioned is not in the bible in any remote fucking way.

Umm, yes it is.

And my use of the word "Lucifer" is just preferable to trying to type out the Hebrew. It's become a popular, common name for Satan despite not coming into existance until long after Isaiah was written.

[Wash]

Good for Bill Maher. A movie like this must have cost nothing to make, so no matter what it'll be a financial success. I've rooted for him ever since Politically Incorrect was pulled from the air over his Iraq war comments.

[Tongue]

Originally Posted by Coren

That seeming to be the central part of the post I'll answer that fast - The Bible is clear that when God created, well, everything that it was perfect; including Lucifer and that iniquity was later found in him. So yes, it's simply that Lucifer chose to go bad, and later drug Man down with him.

Same with mankind. The Bible is quite clear that God created Man to be very much like him; that the reason God created Adam in the first place is to have a being on his own level to commune with. (Mankind ranks higher than the Angels according to the Bible).



In a word, no. But my views on God's omnipotence is probably far beyond the scope of trying to explain here hehe.

The baseline fault here is that you assume everything the Bible says is true...

[Neferata]

This movie looks great. I wonder what the odds are of it being released anywhere near Salt Lake City. Religious dipshits...

[Pinchandroll]

1) God is omnipotent, he is 100% all powerful and capable of doing anything.
2) God is good, he is the image of pure benevolence and everything that is good.
3) There is evil in the world.

1. Agreed, God is omnipotent
2. Agreed, God is good.
3. There is evil in the world, true.

I would argue that God is exemplifying "good" by allowing us our free will and not 'forcing' us into a good path or 'forcing' good things to always happen. You cannot even consider what is good without the concept of evil, and because we are given free will there exists good and evil. Taking away evil would necessitate taking away free will, which in my opinion is worse than being given free will while knowing some will use that gift for evil.

I believe the gift of free will and eternal forgiveness is more "good" than being forced into good all the time. If all we knew was "good," how would we distinguish when we are acting righteously and when we are sinning?

In fact, that irreconcilable 3 part argument is essentially asking "Why didn't God make a perfect world filled with perfect people?" That can be asked many ways: Why do people grow old and die? Why are some people more athletic or better looking or smarter than others? Why create AIDS and malaria and why allow people to get painful hangnails? I think free will and diversity and imperfections are all indications of a good, benevolent God because they indicate (to me) that for all our shortcomings, we can all achieve eternal happiness by simply believing.

In short, I think the ultimate act of goodness is offering the gift of eternal life, not making everyone and everything perfect.


***I realize this might sound like religious debate, but I hope it can just be a discussion. It would be great to have a talk without people becoming rude, inflammatory, or mocking. Given the topic of the thread, however, I realize where this is headed...***

[Neferata]

Yes, yes. Reconciling all of those things is extremely easy. I mean, I think religion is 100% pure horseshit, but that line of arguing against it is just dumb. Anyway, I like to think the reason evil exists is because Thor just doesn't give a fuck. That's the god we're talking about, right?

[Sharmai]

Originally Posted by Xakk

This is a really piss poor analogy. What is god's cosmic police?


If that's that type of God you believe in.

Many philosophers believed that God was reason and logic.

Once you throw out logic that grilled cheese sandwich with jesus face on it makes sense.

Aww comon you know that doesn't work either. By definition God is supernatural. So OF COURSE he is reason and logic. And at the same time not reason and logic. God is not within the bounds of our laws and is also within the bounds of our laws. He is supernatural. It does not make sense because god sense requires a definement of boundaries. Since god is not within any boundaries we can understand then he can be both inside and outside of them all. He can make 2 + 2 =5. He can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it and yet still lift it himself.

The supernatural (Latin: super- "above" + nature) refers to entities, forces or phenomena which are not subject to natural laws, and therefore beyond verifiable measurement. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural