Wesley Snipes gets 3 years.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by kegkilla

well yeah i agree that the older generations got completely fucked over so i'm not sure what your point is...

My point is that 'occupational hazard' is not what caused salaries to increase by 2000% over the last 20 years.

You think A-Rod needs to make 30 million a year playing baseball to offset the risk he faces?

Hell, in that case we should pay the 3rd base coaches millions seeing how last year one of them was killed by a foul ball.

[Awanka]

How many people can become doctors? Maybe 1% of the population. How many people can play with the best in a competitive sport? Maybe 0.01%. It's simple math and economics.

As much as I dislike agreeing with KegKilla, professional athletes deserve their salaries. They work harder than most anyone in America. It's true, that the doctor or lawyer might put in the same hours(doubtful actually), but the level of work isn't the same. It's tougher to kick ass on the field for an hour than sitting on a couch reading legal docs or diagnosing patients. Athletes actually have to compete. These doctors, lawyers, and even soldiers will never know how brutal it is to try to be better than someone on a level playing field. Some people on this board who have played competitively might have had a taste of how difficult it is to become the very best at something like even Counterstrike. The dedication and skill it takes dwarves getting a college degree.

All this psychological/physical crap athletes have to go through combined with their singular skill which currently commands a high market value makes them deserving of their high salaries.

About hazard pay. Dangerous jobs paying more is an arbitrary concept created by humans. Sure, fewer people want to do jobs that can get them killed, but beyond that there is no market force driving hazard pay, otherwise those dipshits who jump on the subway train and than back onto the platform as it's rolling in should get paid millions. A job that will probably get you killed doesn't mean you're going to get paid more, especially since it's generally morons who get trapped into these roles anyway.

[Awanka]

Actors and actresses shouldn't be paid nearly as much as they are however. Unless they're like Daniel Day-Lewis they can be replaced in 2 seconds, all of them imo. I also would like to see newer faces more frequently in these roles. In the movies it's always like "Hey, there's Angelina Jolie as a superspy." "Hey, there's George Clooney as a lawyer." Really, takes me out of it. The massive cockfiends in Hollywood just don't have the balls to bankroll a movie without some marquee name to it. There's some empirical evidence to back this sort of thinking maybe, but I think a good movie is a good movie without the big names and people will go to see it anyway. It's the movies that makes the stars and not the other way around.

Alfred Hitchcock or someone once said actors should be treated like animals.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Awanka

It's true, that the doctor or lawyer might put in the same hours(doubtful actually),

Actually, they put in a LOT more hours than athletes.

but the level of work isn't the same. It's tougher to kick ass on the field for an hour than sitting on a couch reading legal docs or diagnosing patients.

You're totally right. God forbid you work in a profession where, you know, actual lives are at stake. No pressure there whatsoever.

These doctors, lawyers, and even soldiers will never know how brutal it is to try to be better than someone on a level playing field.

Are you serious? Evidently you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to get into a top college, a top grad school, survive your first few years of medical or legal profession beyond school, and then excel within your field. It is entirely cutthroat, brutal, and unforgiving.

I'm not saying that professional athletes don't work hard or work often; clearly they do. But it's absolutely laughable to claim that what they do is in any way, shape, or form more difficult or all-consuming than the top-level work done by people in real professions. Professions where you aren't getting ridiculously overpaid to take steroids and play a game for a living.

Some people on this board who have played competitively might have had a taste of how difficult it is to become the very best at something like even Counterstrike. The dedication and skill it takes dwarves getting a college degree.

Try getting into a top law school, being the best in your class at the top law school, and then working your way up a top law firm. Or investment bank. And then start making statements like that. Investment bankers, for instance, often work 365 days a year without weekends or vacations. I know from experience that athletes and actors cannot say the same.

All this psychological/physical crap athletes have to go through combined with their singular skill which currently commands a high market value makes them deserving of their high salaries.

But the athletes were doing just fine before they started landing $100 million contracts. You can't honestly tell me that some $100 million basketball player today is better than Michael Jordan was when he was making considerably less in his prime. The only thing that's changed is the pay scale.

At the end of the day, I'm not denying that what professional athletes do is extremely hard, extremely competitive, and extremely selective. But there's no particular reason why they can't live with $1 million a year instead of $10 million.

[Twobit Whore]

Doctors and lawyers (some of them anyway) actually take peoples lives in their hands. Comparing them on salary is highly inane. The next time a baseball player does neurosurgery let me know and I'll revisit my stance.

[Astrocreep]

a surgeon can save a bunch of people in his lifetime, but a star athlete or actor can entertain and bring happiness to millions of people over their lifetime. thats why the actor or sports star gets more money . its because they are dealing with a bigger sample of people.

[Vvoid]

Originally Posted by Awanka

How many people can become doctors? Maybe 1% of the population. How many people can play with the best in a competitive sport? Maybe 0.01%. It's simple math and economics.

As much as I dislike agreeing with KegKilla, professional athletes deserve their salaries. They work harder than most anyone in America. It's true, that the doctor or lawyer might put in the same hours(doubtful actually), but the level of work isn't the same. It's tougher to kick ass on the field for an hour than sitting on a couch reading legal docs or diagnosing patients. Athletes actually have to compete. These doctors, lawyers, and even soldiers will never know how brutal it is to try to be better than someone on a level playing field. Some people on this board who have played competitively might have had a taste of how difficult it is to become the very best at something like even Counterstrike. The dedication and skill it takes dwarves getting a college degree.

All this psychological/physical crap athletes have to go through combined with their singular skill which currently commands a high market value makes them deserving of their high salaries.

About hazard pay. Dangerous jobs paying more is an arbitrary concept created by humans. Sure, fewer people want to do jobs that can get them killed, but beyond that there is no market force driving hazard pay, otherwise those dipshits who jump on the subway train and than back onto the platform as it's rolling in should get paid millions. A job that will probably get you killed doesn't mean you're going to get paid more, especially since it's generally morons who get trapped into these roles anyway.

Millie pretty much already said how I feel about it, but comparing the type of "work" that an athlete puts in to the type a doctor puts in is laughable. It is purely about how much they can get out of it (and how much goes in), nothing more. Athletes can get those kinds of salaries, so they do, that's it, period. It has nothing to do with how hard each person works.

I mean fuck, I work at a business where all I do all day is sit on my ass doing shit on the computer, much of the time reading stuff like this. I don't work "hard" by any sense of the word. Yet right outside my office is a warehouse where people are welding, grinding metal, moving heavy shit, etc. and making far less than me. They are ALL working "harder" than me. But they can't do my job, because I grasp it better, am smarter, or whatever intangible you want to place on it. If my job paid me $10 million, I'd fucking take it just like the rest of you would, and I wouldn't think twice about those sorry saps in the warehouse making $10 an hour. I'm sure that I could claim my brain is working harder or something, but I'm just trying to justify my higher salary, when all it really is, is that I can get that much.

Athletes may "work" harder than doctors in a purely physical sense, or even other intangible ways, but level of "work" has never been a good indicator of wage. And just comparing those two in that manner just makes me want to ask what you're smoking.

[Heylel Teomim]

This shit just supports what I was saying earlier. People get all starstruck over athletes like they're larger than life. They're just hard workin dudes with a higher than average human reaction time, and a biological predisposition to respond well to physical training. You could say the same about a race horse.

I'm sorry, but athletes don't deserve the pay they get relative to jobs that actually improve the world. You can argue that entertainment provides a public service if you want, but it in no way approaches the sort of commitment to mankind as something like a doctor, or a child services supervisor.

I don't even agree with the notion that fewer people have the potential to be top athletes than other professions. As folks other than me have said, being the best in *any* field is equally as hard, and no one sees anything close to the same return on effort as an athlete. These guys are also given massive advantages that many other more intellectual students would never get. It's not an isolated event for promising college athletes to be provides with tutors, additional or alternate tests or assignments to boost grades, attendance exemptions. These are the very same benefits that mean students working towards professional degrees have to work even harder.

How this is even a debate baffles me. They don't deserve it, but life isn't fair. I thought this was one of those things we just all agreed upon, like gravity.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Astrocreep

a surgeon can save a bunch of people in his lifetime, but a star athlete or actor can entertain and bring happiness to millions of people over their lifetime. thats why the actor or sports star gets more money . its because they are dealing with a bigger sample of people.

Astrocreep: Consistently proving that yes even opinions can be wrong.

[Nabi]

Originally Posted by Astrocreep

a surgeon can save a bunch of people in his lifetime, but a star athlete or actor can entertain and bring happiness to millions of people over their lifetime. thats why the actor or sports star gets more money . its because they are dealing with a bigger sample of people.

Doctors don't always save lives, even the greatest athletes strike out/fumble/etc... and frequently change teams (for more money usually). Pornstars however always deliver. I have yet to see any of my favorite pornstars in a bad movie; it's just different degrees of good. They also provide happiness to millions, and you don't even need to sit through a 3 hour game or be sick to appreciate their talents! Show me one other profession that deserve to be paid higher than pornstars.

[jaybee]

Originally Posted by kegkilla

professional athletes are the best in the world at what they do. even though they aren't necessarily "book smart" it takes a lot of intelligence to be able to compete and succeed in professional sports.

Now, I know this is an MMO forum primarily, and I don't expect a high level of sports talk, but give me a break here. I don't care how you define intelligence - "book smart", "street smart", whatever...professional athletes and intelligence should never be used in the same sentence.

Also movie/sports star salaries aren't cyclical, that would imply a cycle has already taken place and will do so again. Upward trend is the term to best describe it.

Back on topic, I do agree with jail term handed out. He cheated the gov out of a lot of cash over a long peroid of time. Even if you have others invest for you, it's still your money and your responsibility to know how it's being invested.

[Eomer]

Originally Posted by Millie

You know, I've heard variations on that argument many times, and I just don't buy it. Admittedly I'm not the best person in the world to argue sports. But you can't tell me that playing football for a living deserves tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation. It's not that difficult of a job. The best-of-the-best doctor or lawyer or investment banker works a lot harder at an infinitely more difficult profession, and all except for possibly the latter will never touch a fraction of a football star's salary.

I don't really agree with you on athletes. I don't think they're "worth" what they're paid, certainly. We agree there. But the reason athletes make what they do is because no one else can do what they do. Period. They're the absolute best in the world at what they do, and what they do happens to be in large demand. It's very much a "merit" based profession, at least.

It's got nothing to do with how difficult it is vs. being a lawyer or doctor or banker. It's simple, dumb economics. There only happens to be a couple hundred athletes at any one time able to supply an absolutely massive demand for their services.

Movie stars etc are similar, although you can argue the supply isn't nearly as constrained as it is in professional athletics, because there's always another pretty face desperate to do anything to make it big.

I don't see why this discrepancy so shocks people. Most jobs in life don't pay proportionate to how important/necessary they are, how hard of a job it is, how unpleasant it is, how much training you need, etc etc etc. If life was fair, Mother Theresa would be a billionaire and Paris Hilton would be sucking dick in an alley. But she wouldn't be wearing 10 grand worth of clothes doing it.

[Heylel Teomim]

I think you mean STILL sucking dick in an alley

[escrima]

Originally Posted by Jait

Well, keep in mind Willie Nelson owed 17 million, that's more than Blade. He was never even tried. They just came and forclosed on everything.

The main difference is Willie Mays Hayes sent his money overseas, and actively tried to deceive and defraud the government. 3 years is harsh, but it sent a message loud and clear. He'll be out in half that, I'd guess?

Maximum good conduct credit in the federal system is 15% of time served. He has to serve 85% of his sentence.

[Awanka]

Originally Posted by Millie

You're totally right. God forbid you work in a profession where, you know, actual lives are at stake. No pressure there whatsoever.

There's pressure during surgery of course, but nowhere near the pressure of being a top athlete. I doubt doctors often think "OMG, if I don't improve myself and be the absolute best, people might die." That's the kind of bullshit you see on "ER." All you have to do as a doctor is not fuck up. It's not like you have to compete in surgery with 10 other doctors just as good as you in front of a large audience to determine who is the best doctor, and the 9 doctors that lose become door-to-door salesmen. That would be akin to the pressure of being a professional athlete.

Originally Posted by Millie

Are you serious? Evidently you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to get into a top college, a top grad school, survive your first few years of medical or legal profession beyond school, and then excel within your field. It is entirely cutthroat, brutal, and unforgiving.

In any profession, there's some competition and room to excel. Being a professional athlete is another level of difficulty. It's only comparable to becoming a syndicated cartoonist. How many people in America have what it takes to get into top schools? I would guess somewhere between 3 and 15 million. How many people in America have what it takes to play in the NBA? i would guess 1000-5000. All you have to do to become a doctor is put in a lot of hours and reading and putting up with patient bullshit. I wouldn't even go so far as to call it "hard." "Hard" to mean is something that can only be performed by a small percentage of the human population. Becoming a successful doctor isn't that hard evidenced by the many people who do it every year.

Originally Posted by Millie

Try getting into a top law school, being the best in your class at the top law school, and then working your way up a top law firm. Or investment bank. And then start making statements like that. Investment bankers, for instance, often work 365 days a year without weekends or vacations. I know from experience that athletes and actors cannot say the same.

Rumor is that investment bankers aren't hurting for money. The thing about lawyers and doctors and investment bankers is that they don't have to be the best. You just have to be good enough. The better you are the more money you get, but it's a different game from what athletes have to face where you either are among the best or you gtfo. I'm currently trying to become the best data warehousing engineer I can, but I wouldn't be naive enough to go around pretending I'm under some great stress.