Ben Stein Expelled

[Mimirswell]

Originally Posted by Jedah

But the problem is twofold then if you're walking into the discussion presupposing that religion is a social control mechanism: the event has been predestined down to the very specific survivors and everyone else still dies.

I'll be forward about my point so we can avoid misunderstandings: the prevalent theory of religion as a social control mechanism seems reductionist and doesn't, in my view anyways, take account of just how varied different belief systems are. Though it still fulfills the basic death and rebirth myth, theres nothing approaching the promise of universal salvation we see with modern Christianity.

Sorry, I didn't address this point because it was only tangential to the outcome of Ragnarök. The virtuous nobles who died during the great battle will live on in the hall of Gimlé while the commoners who led virtuous lives will be merry in the hall of Brimir or Sindri after Ragnarök. The wicked (oathbreakers and murderers primarily) will be tormented at Náströnd for all eternity (a hall built of snakes whose heads always point inward and spit poison).

This is all explained in great detail in the Völuspá (48-65) if you wish to learn more about this mythology as you have some very clear misunderstandings (as most individuals do about religions not of their culture).

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by Mimirswell

Sorry, I didn't address this point because it was only tangential to the outcome of Ragnarök. The virtuous nobles who died during the great battle will live on in the hall of Gimlé while the commoners who led virtuous lives will be merry in the hall of Brimir or Sindri after Ragnarök. The wicked (oathbreakers and murderers primarily) will be tormented at Náströnd for all eternity (a hall built of snakes whose heads always point inward and spit poison).

This is all explained in great detail in the Völuspá (48-65) if you wish to learn more about this mythology as you have some very clear misunderstandings (as most individuals do about religions not of their culture).

Well, my face is certainly red then.

[Arbitrary]

The middle way of buddhism promotes universal salvation. A few guys even stick around in the death/rebirth cycle just to help the rest of us get the fuck off the karmic wheel.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

I'd actually agree with the religious fans on this one. Most religions provided a scary "or else" to try and mandate people into doing good things.

Imagine if it wasn't an invincible God or pantheon of Gods....

I don't know, monkeys and shit don't need that to create laws for their society.

I'm sure religion can be used to reinforce natural laws that our monkey ancestors (sorry creationists) already had, but they were still there to begin with. The biggest difference to me, when going from a mere monkey "society" to a full blown human "civilization" is technology (the most important being farming). All societies, even monkey ones, have laws. Humans are the only species that has any meaningful technology (especially farming).

BTW, I'm using whatever apparent distinction between "society" and "civilization" that one of the creationists came up with earlier in this thread.

[Xakk]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

I don't know, monkeys and shit don't need that to create laws for their society.

Monkeys usually rule by whoever is most powerful and beats the shit out of everyone else. They will also steal from each other and are very greedy and are absolutely fucking brutal.

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

I'm sure religion can be used to reinforce natural laws that our monkey ancestors (sorry creationists) already had, but they were still there to begin with. The biggest difference to me, when going from a mere monkey "society" to a full blown human "civilization" is technology (the most important being farming). All societies, even monkey ones, have laws. Humans are the only species that has any meaningful technology (especially farming).

Farming was done before civilization existed. Subsistence farming doesn't really add much to a society.

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

BTW, I'm using whatever apparent distinction between "society" and "civilization" that one of the creationists came up with earlier in this thread.

Civilization is characterized by:
1) division of labor (specialization)
2) monumental architecture
3) organized government and a complex religious structure
4) system of writing

Specialization occurs when there is an excess of resources which allows others to do things that doesn't involve survival (pottery making, art, literature)

Monumental architecture cannot take place unless there is a excess of resources (wood, stone, manpower) available.

Organized government and complex religious structure means that there are positions greater than just Chief and Shaman.

Writing is very critical to civilization (as much as religion). Without writing the preservation, organization and expansion of knowledge is impossible.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Xakk

Monkeys usually rule by whoever is most powerful and beats the shit out of everyone else.

Hi2u, human race.

Then again, there's also that bonobo species that solves everything by fucking.

They will also steal from each other and are very greedy and are absolutely fucking brutal.

Not really. Someone already covered taboos against theft in this thread.

Brutality is usually directed outside the tribe as well. Just like humans.

Farming was done before civilization existed.

My point was that technology (especially farming) is a more necessary condition for going from mere "society" to "civilization" than religion.

Subsistence farming doesn't really add much to a society

Couldn't disagree more, but that would be an unnecessary tangent.

Civilization is characterized by:
1) division of labor (specialization)
2) monumental architecture
3) organized government and a complex religious structure
4) system of writing

Many of these seem somewhat arbitrary to me, but I really like number 3 and how you ramrodded religion into that list on the back of government.

And I hate doing this, but I went to Wikipedia just to see if there was some precise definition of "civilization" that I'm unaware of. In the first paragraph, practice of agriculture was mentioned.

[Xakk]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

Hi2u, human race.

Yeah I get beaten and fucked by the president every day.

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

My point was that technology (especially farming) is a more necessary condition for going from mere "society" to "civilization" than religion.

Unlike Neolithic villages, city-states in Mesopotamia were formed for reasons other than agriculture. City-states were administrative, religious, manufacturing, entertainment, and commercial centers.

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

Many of these seem somewhat arbitrary to me, but I really like number 3 and how you ramrodded religion into that list on the back of government.

Find a tribe that has these characteristics or a civilization that doesn't.

Early governments were focused around religion because:

Originally Posted by Xakk

3) justified traditional rules of morality (law considered sacred--commands of god)

6) power of rulers derived from religion (regarded as gods or agents of gods)

Rulers used religion to rule and dictate law.

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

And I hate doing this, but I went to Wikipedia just to see if there was some precise definition of "civilization" that I'm unaware of. In the first paragraph, practice of agriculture was mentioned.

A very credible source.

civilization, (a society in an advanced state of social development (e.g., with complex legal and political and religious organizations))

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

NO U

Whether you want to admit it or not, religion was integral in the building of CIVILIZATION not SOCIETY. Do you see the distinction there?

civilization >>>>>> society



Even Xakk can agree on this point. I don't understand what your hang up is.

The topic is society not civilization. You can understand how human society and civilization evolved from by studying how it exists in species similar to our own. Those societies have nothing to fucking do with spirituality or religion yet function.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Xakk

Religion was the foundation and the central force which drove a lot of early civilizations. It was the main focus of Mesopotamians and Egyptians inspiring laws, government, art, literature and science.

1) provided satisfactory explanations for the operations of the universe

Since a vast majority of the population would be illiterate unaware of the specific intricacies of any given religion id have to say bullshit. A majority of the population would be unaware of the metaphysical specifics that described the universe. Other than "gods did it!".

3) justified traditional rules of morality (law considered sacred--commands of god)

Morality (at least the rough outline) is justified by biological imperative. Formal ethics and morality are based upon the base instincts that are easily identified and observable in humans and other closely related species. IE the killing of other humans is something we are wired to NOT do. It takes special circumstances to override this imperative. Its something various militaries have been dealing with forever and there is a vast amount of research on the topic if one was inclined to look it up.

4) united people in common enterprises needed for survival

Survival itself unites people in common enterprises.... Agriculture predates "organized religion" by a vast margin.

5) promoted creativity in art & literature

Once again religion as you are using the term didnt come to exist for many thousands of years after the fundamentals of society and civilization existed. Basic spiritual beliefs != organized religion and priesthoods.

6) power of rulers derived from religion (regarded as gods or agents of gods)

Once again organized religion and divine ruler ship doesn't come around (as far as we can tell) thousands of years after agriculture and domestication of animals. Even basic trading culture predates it. Stop equating any form of spiritual practice to imply organized priesthoods they are not the same thing.

3) organized government and a complex religious structure (all civilizations had religion)
4) system of writing

Writing and organized religion DOES NOT COME AROUND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER AGRICULTURE/TRADING/DOMESTICATION OF ANIMALS. And no shit "civilization" doesnt come about until after the things you have listed. Since its those things listed that we use to define the term "civilization".

[Arakkis]

Gryeyes, your claims are totally wrong. All civilizations that changed from hunter-gatherer societies to agrarian societies were based around religion that was passed down using the oral tradition. Religion/spirituality far predates any sort of agriculture, trading, or animal domestication. I suggest you go back and do some reading because almost everything you said is totally wrong.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

The topic is society not civilization. You can understand how human society and civilization evolved from by studying how it exists in species similar to our own. Those societies have nothing to fucking do with spirituality or religion yet function.

This is completely untrue. You changed what I said to match your argument. You cannot change a person's argument to something you would rather argue against. I believe it is called a red herring.

I am interested to know why you argue so vehemently against religion. Did you have some sort of bad experience with religion in your past?

[Xakk]

Arakkis has a point about the venomous bullshit spewing.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Since a vast majority of the population would be illiterate unaware of the specific intricacies of any given religion id have to say bullshit. A majority of the population would be unaware of the metaphysical specifics that described the universe. Other than "gods did it!".

Cuneiform begins ca 3000 b.c. and by 2500 b.c. writing schools existed throughout Sumer. The majority of people remain illiterate until the development of the printing press.
Early man did not know how the body functioned or what caused wind. They believed people and animals to have spirits in them which is what caused things to move and to be animate (animism).
It provided a satisfactory explanation to them in understanding what was occurring around them.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Morality (at least the rough outline) is justified by biological imperative. Formal ethics and morality are based upon the base instincts that are easily identified and observable in humans and other closely related species. IE the killing of other humans is something we are wired to NOT do. It takes special circumstances to override this imperative. Its something various militaries have been dealing with forever and there is a vast amount of research on the topic if one was inclined to look it up.

This argument could go on forever. Someone can justify stealing/killing to themselves so they believe they've done the right thing.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Survival itself unites people in common enterprises.... Agriculture predates "organized religion" by a vast margin.

I have not used the word organized religion.
I do use the word religion to cover sympathetic magic and animism.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Once again religion as you are using the term didnt come to exist for many thousands of years after the fundamentals of society and civilization existed. Basic spiritual beliefs != organized religion and priesthoods.

Neolithic Revolution 8000-3500 B.C.
Sumerians arrive in Mesopotamia ca 3500 B.C.

The most prominent building in a Sumerian city was the temple, which was dedicated to the chief god or goddess of the city and often built atop a massive stepped tower called a ziggurat. A ziggurat is large, brick platform crowned by temple on top of platform the word in Sumerian means "high place," "mountain top," "pinnacle". So, a ziggurat is sort of like an artificial mountain where the gods revealed themselves (ancient people believed the gods were on mountains, such as Mt. Sinai or Horeb for the Hebrews or Mt. Olympus for the Greeks). The most famous is the ziggurat at Ur which had staircases to each level up to temple and it was surrounded by low walls enclosing offices and houses for priests and shops for potters, weavers, carpenters, farmers.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Once again organized religion and divine ruler ship doesn't come around (as far as we can tell) thousands of years after agriculture and domestication of animals. Even basic trading culture predates it. Stop equating any form of spiritual practice to imply organized priesthoods they are not the same thing.

Organized religion and religion are two different things. Sympathetic magic and animism existed before agriculture.

Early man (Paleolithic, Cro-magnon man) 20,000 bc - 10,000bc

Originally Posted by Xakk

early man believed in animism and would paint corpses, fold arms over the chest and leave pendants, necklaces, richly carved tools and/or weapons in graves.

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Writing and organized religion DOES NOT COME AROUND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER AGRICULTURE/TRADING/DOMESTICATION OF ANIMALS. And no shit "civilization" doesnt come about until after the things you have listed. Since its those things listed that we use to define the term "civilization".

You are correct, writing and organized religion doesn't occur until after the Neolithic Revolution. It's funny since I've been arguing the definition and what constitutes civilization with voodoochild.

I guess you believe that animism/sympathetic magic isn't in anyway a religion or somehow got confused by my argument. Don't get me wrong when I say art, literature, government, religion or law. These aren't the same quality we have today. It was the starting point.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Xakk

Cuneiform begins ca 3000 b.c. and by 2500 b.c. writing schools existed throughout Sumer. The majority of people remain illiterate until the development of the printing press.
Early man did not know how the body functioned or what caused wind. They believed people and animals to have spirits in them which is what caused things to move and to be animate (animism).
It provided a satisfactory explanation to them in understanding what was occurring around them.

Awesome so you just confirmed what i said. That a vast majority of the people had no clue what explanations a given religion given other than "gods did it" thanks for confirming.

This argument could go on forever. Someone can justify stealing/killing to themselves so they believe they've done the right thing.

What does this have to fucking to with morality being based in instinctual wiring of a social mammal?

I have not used the word organized religion.
I do use the word religion to cover sympathetic magic and animism.

No you havent but the manner in which you use the term "religion" can mean nothing else. Sympathetic magic an animism ARE NOT RELIGIONS. They are spiritual or metaphysical concepts. A religion is more than just base superstition and spirituality.It is a set of codiAs i said before spirituality!=religion. Im sure you can figure out the distinction.

Neolithic Revolution 8000-3500 B.C.
Sumerians arrive in Mesopotamia ca 3500 B.C.

The most prominent building in a Sumerian city was the temple, which was dedicated to the chief god or goddess of the city and often built atop a massive stepped tower called a ziggurat. A ziggurat is large, brick platform crowned by temple on top of platform the word in Sumerian means "high place," "mountain top," "pinnacle". So, a ziggurat is sort of like an artificial mountain where the gods revealed themselves (ancient people believed the gods were on mountains, such as Mt. Sinai or Horeb for the Hebrews or Mt. Olympus for the Greeks). The most famous is the ziggurat at Ur which had staircases to each level up to temple and it was surrounded by low walls enclosing offices and houses for priests and shops for potters, weavers, carpenters, farmers.

So once again you confirmed exactly what i said. I dont understanding why you keep confirming exactly what i say as if its a contradiction. Agriculture pre-dates organized religion by thousands of years yep already said that thanks.

Organized religion and religion are two different things. Sympathetic magic and animism existed before agriculture.

Early man (Paleolithic, Cro-magnon man) 20,000 bc - 10,000bc

Religion and superstition/spirituality are also two different things as well.

You are correct, writing and organized religion doesn't occur until after the Neolithic Revolution. It's funny since I've been arguing the definition and what constitutes civilization with voodoochild.

Awesome so writing and RELIGION as opposed to base spirituality and superstition's doesn't exist for thousands of years after agriculture. I think ive been saying this somewhere.

I guess you believe that animism/sympathetic magic isn't in anyway a religion or somehow got confused by my argument. Don't get me wrong when I say art, literature, government, religion or law. These aren't the same quality we have today. It was the starting point.

In and of itself of course its not. Thats like saying believing in ghosts is a religion. Or that if i eat a bears heart i gain its strength. Those are just metaphysical beliefs. The term religion implies a codified set of beliefs and doctrine. At the very best it would be a proto-religion since those beliefs would later evolve into religions.

But we have gotten side tracked. The origination of this topic was arrakis claiming that "morality" exists as a direct result of "shamans".

This is completely untrue. You changed what I said to match your argument. You cannot change a person's argument to something you would rather argue against. I believe it is called a red herring.

I am interested to know why you argue so vehemently against religion. Did you have some sort of bad experience with religion in your past?

The topic was "morality" you later kept changing your claims as each one was refuted. Who every said i had anything against religion? Once again you are projecting your beliefs onto the world.

[Arakkis]

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I state again, your claims are completely false and your arguments are completely invalid. If you weren't so dedicated in your posting I would write you off as a troll and disregard any further posts you made. But you seem able to be reasoned with, so I will attempt to do just that.

You are assuming that religion requires all the modern trappings when this is completely false. See the definition above. Simple spirituality IS religion, not an organized system with scriptures and priests. There is speculative research that tries to make the claim that economic factors only are responsible for the Neolithic Revolution, however these researchers ignore the fact that governance of the first settlements was done by religious leaders.

[Arbitrary]

You cannot give a quick Webster's for a word like religion and expect anyone but yourself to give a fuck what it says.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I state again, your claims are completely false and your arguments are completely invalid. If you weren't so dedicated in your posting I would write you off as a troll and disregard any further posts you made. But you seem able to be reasoned with, so I will attempt to do just that.

You are assuming that religion requires all the modern trappings when this is completely false. See the definition above. Simple spirituality IS religion, not an organized system with scriptures and priests. There is speculative research that tries to make the claim that economic factors only are responsible for the Neolithic Revolution, however these researchers ignore the fact that governance of the first settlements was done by religious leaders.

No i assume there is a distinction between ANY form of metaphysical thought or belief and a RELIGION. If your argument requires equating any and all spirituality to a religion so you dont appear moronic ok you are free to do so.
Your claims that the basis of morality is religion is laughable. Its been explained in detail why you are wrong. You can change the focus of the argument and reduce all definitions to drivel but you are still wrong.

Religion: 1 a: the state of a religious b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Religious: 1: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

Worship!=Sympathic magic,animism

Please stop trying to argue with a wikipedia base of knowledge. It just makes you look stupid.