Ben Stein Expelled

[Agraza]

That shit in Japan is hilarious. Crows are very smart.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

I think a lot of you proud atheists forget where you vehemently argue we came from. Man started out as an ape. When an ape wants something they will not hesitate to kill whatever is in their way to get it. Do you really think a strong internal moral code is what kept ancient man from tearing each other apart long enough to learn how to farm and develop architecture? No, it was fear. Fear of the unknown fed by shamans/medicine men to get early man to stop killing each other and evolve. Don't believe me?

Basic morality is derived from the instinctual wiring of a social mammal. It sure as fuck isnt founded on "shamans and medicine men". What keeps an ant hive from destroying itself? What imposes the social structures on other social mammals? I promise it isnt "fear of shaman".

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

You are right. We are just the only creatures on the planet who can reason, speak, socialize, rationalize, know consciously what the hell we are...the list goes on. We're not so different, them and us.

Socialize? Know consciously what the hell we are? Reason? Speak?! I will assume you are joking the alternative is just to awful.

[Schatze]

Actually even in monkeys, if one monkey has one thing another wants, they'll trade. They're also capable after observation to determine when they're cheated on a trade and become furious.

Somehow I think Arrakis has been willingly blind to the past 40 years or so of primate research. In one species, it is easy to see shadows of man's behaviour. Looking at the diverse ranges of behaviour of the several great ape species is very much like looking into a mirror. Well, with less body hair, unless you're Italian.

That's excluding dolphins because there's more argument there as to the extent of their intellects.

[Ronne]

Which ever side, God or Evolution, can explain the Platypus wins imo.

[Schatze]

Monotremes are sort of a mind fuck. And non-placental mammals are wierd too.

Primitive mammals that were isolated and therefore were able to survive and speciate withought competition by more advanced placental mammals that evolved due to the aforementioned isolation.

But I'm no evolutionary biologist, that's just sort of my understanding of why Australia has a lock on descendants of primitive mammal types that went extinct elsewhere. Monotremes and marsupials.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Schatze

Actually even in monkeys, if one monkey has one thing another wants, they'll trade. They're also capable after observation to determine when they're cheated on a trade and become furious.

Somehow I think Arrakis has been willingly blind to the past 40 years or so of primate research. In one species, it is easy to see shadows of man's behaviour. Looking at the diverse ranges of behaviour of the several great ape species is very much like looking into a mirror. Well, with less body hair, unless you're Italian.

That's excluding dolphins because there's more argument there as to the extent of their intellects.

One group of chimpanzees is dominated by females who resolve social problems with homoerotic sex acts. If this isn't proof of God's plan, what is?

[Schatze]

That's bonobos, they handle any stressful interpersonal issues with sex. Pretty much every combination you can imagine, any pairing type you can think of.

Hell, they handle everything with sex. Bonobo society is governed by sex.

Pygmy chimps are brutal fuckers though. Bonobos are the free love hippies of the primate world, and our closest relatives.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Schatze

That's bonobos, they handle any stressful interpersonal issues with sex. Pretty much every combination you can imagine, any pairing type you can think of.

Hell, they handle everything with sex. Bonobo society is governed by sex.

Pygmy chimps are brutal fuckers though. Bonobos are the free love hippies of the primate world, and our closest relatives.

Which ones are the gang raping constant inter tribal battle chimps?

[Arakkis]

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Basic morality is derived from the instinctual wiring of a social mammal. It sure as fuck isnt founded on "shamans and medicine men". What keeps an ant hive from destroying itself? What imposes the social structures on other social mammals? I promise it isnt "fear of shaman".

You do know that ants use pheromones to recognize each other. If an ant is incapable of producing the correct pheromone or if it is artificially removed (which they did in an experiment) any ants of the colony attack and kill it. Are you really comparing the release and detection of pheromones to morality?

Originally Posted by Schatze

Actually even in monkeys, if one monkey has one thing another wants, they'll trade. They're also capable after observation to determine when they're cheated on a trade and become furious.

Somehow I think Arrakis has been willingly blind to the past 40 years or so of primate research. In one species, it is easy to see shadows of man's behaviour. Looking at the diverse ranges of behaviour of the several great ape species is very much like looking into a mirror. Well, with less body hair, unless you're Italian.

That's excluding dolphins because there's more argument there as to the extent of their intellects.

Admittedly, I am no expert on ape social interactions. But I do know that in enclosures, young male chimpanzees have to be separated from the baby chimps or they will kill them. Some morality. In fact I am pretty sure that the only reason chimps have any sort of interaction besides fucking and killing is that a hierarchy is established on who can kick who's ass and the top chimp keeps order.

And I happen to be Italian.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

You do know that ants use pheromones to recognize each other. If an ant is incapable of producing the correct pheromone or if it is artificially removed (which they did in an experiment) any ants of the colony attack and kill it. Are you really comparing the release and detection of pheromones to morality?

No im saying its clearly evident social creatures of all types organize and impose order without the mythical "fear wielding shaman who is the lynch pin of civilization" that you created.

Admittedly, I am no expert on ape social interactions. But I do know that in enclosures, young male chimpanzees have to be separated from the baby chimps or they will kill them. Some morality. In fact I am pretty sure that the only reason chimps have any sort of interaction besides fucking and killing is that a hierarchy is established on who can kick who's ass and the top chimp keeps order.

I dont even really know where to begin. Nobody ever fucking said chimps have morality. But they have social order imposed by genetics...just like humans. And their social behavior is extremely similar to humans. As are a wide variety of other greater apes and other social mammals. And while you are "pretty sure" you have basically dick for knowledge on the topic yet feel the need to talk about it from a position of certainty. The root of civilization and "morality" is the genetic traits of a social animal. Anyone with eyes can easily see this with even casual observation and knowledge of primates.

That you think humanity isnt governed by similar social structures of dominance is pretty amusing tho. Also your use of the word "morality" as if its some objective law and use some behavior of captured animals as a means to support your claims is laughable. I could link endless streams of examples of humanities morality but its wasted breath.

Reserve faith and spiritual belief for topics that arent addressed by better means. Faith need not preclude logic or critical thinking.

[Schatze]

Pygmy chimps are extremely hierarchical, and the battles for dominance are violent. Pygmy chimps will also engage in war upon other troops, wars of elimination.

Infanticide within the troop is nothing I've ever heard of. It doesn't even make sense as the sub-dominants mate all the time with the females behind the dominants back. It's not like lions where when one male takes over a pride, he kills the kittens so the females go back into estrus and therefore bare his children.

Never heard about infanticide within troops. Actually, chimps adopt infants whose mothers die. They babysit for each other, groom, etc.

What you're probably thinking of when a new male gets introduced into a troop it gets its ass kicked for hours as the whole dominance setting goes down.

But actually pygmy chimps in my opinion embody a lot of the best and worst traits of man. From the hierarchy, to the violence, tribalism, to the gentleness. Looking at a troop of chimps I have no problem seeing so many commonalities with myself, and everyone around me. Their "morality" is based on biological imperatives, as are ours. They just don't have fancy abstract minds and verbal abilities to rationalize their impulses, nor to build upon them.

[Chrisb3]

So the Platypus is living evidence of the link between reptiles and mammals?

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by Chrisb3

So the Platypus is living evidence of the link between reptiles and mammals?

Sort of.

It has fur and suckles its young but it also lays eggs and has a cloaca( in FoH speak, that means it fucks and shits out of the same hole).

Even the genetic material (sperm and chromosomal) and skeletal makeup show evidence of both modern reptiles and mammals, as well as the now-extinct therapsids.

There are only about 10 or so fossils on record that can be traced back as evolutionary ancestors to Platypus however.

I mentioned Steropodon galmani (with a link to a picture of the fossil that was found) in my large transitional fossil post and that is the biggest link we have of ancestors to modern monotremes.

There are a couple others of note including a set of teeth discovered in Argentinian that closely resemble those on another extinct monotreme. These teeth helped to also reinforce the fact that Australia and South America used to be the supercontinent Gondwana.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

Sort of.

It has fur and suckles its young but it also lays eggs and has a cloaca( in FoH speak, that means it fucks and shits out of the same hole).

Even the genetic material (sperm and chromosomal) and skeletal makeup show evidence of both modern reptiles and mammals, as well as the now-extinct therapsids.

There are only about 10 or so fossils on record that can be traced back as evolutionary ancestors to Platypus however.

I mentioned Steropodon galmani (with a link to a picture of the fossil that was found) in my large transitional fossil post and that is the biggest link we have of ancestors to modern monotremes.

There are a couple others of note including a set of teeth discovered in Argentinian that closely resemble those on another extinct monotreme. These teeth helped to also reinforce the fact that Australia and South America used to be the supercontinent Gondwana.

They just finished mapping the platypus genome i think he was referencing that. You seem pretty knowledgeable is cannibalism a common behavior for primates? Saw some chimps eating eachother and i cant recall seeing it before.