Ben Stein Expelled

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Smocca

No its the fact that you pick and choose which aspects of science are okay and which are not. Science that gets you a larger hard drive for your ipod? Fuck yea. Science that challenges your zeal toward your chosen religion? Blasphemy.

Its fucking retarded too btw because the religious before everyone else should be embracing science. God made everything right? And you want to know god as well as possible right? Well then wouldn't you want to objectively study his universe, so that you could better understand the mind of god? No that would actually involve critical thinking and would ruin the whole idea of using religion as a shortcut to moral superiority.

Yeah...because the comparison of a hard drive to how we came into existence is equal?

I don't understand why the mindset here is that you are either Religious or Scientific, but you can't be both. If you are one, you must hate the other fervently. You cannot follow anything the opposing choice says.

I mean it's about as idiotic to say that as it would be for me to accuse you of picking and choosing parts of religion to follow, because you want to be good person and not steal, kill, etc.

What exactly does science have to do with moral superiority at all? What scientific breakthrough has done anything to the cause of morality? You created a new hard drive for my iPod, which took alot of work, so that is the long way to moral superiority? I'm not following you here...

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

What exactly does science have to do with moral superiority at all? What scientific breakthrough has done anything to the cause of morality?

Medicine?

I mean shit, that's just for starters.

[Smocca]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

Yeah...because the comparison of a hard drive to how we came into existence is equal?

I don't understand why the mindset here is that you are either Religious or Scientific, but you can't be both. If you are one, you must hate the other fervently. You cannot follow anything the opposing choice says.

I mean it's about as idiotic to say that as it would be for me to accuse you of picking and choosing parts of religion to follow, because you want to be good person and not steal, kill, etc.

What exactly does science have to do with moral superiority at all? What scientific breakthrough has done anything to the cause of morality? You created a new hard drive for my iPod, which took alot of work, so that is the long way to moral superiority? I'm not following you here...

Jesus H. Christ.

Okay first off, yes to science in many ways finding a way to make a better HD and learning the secrets of the universe are both valid, scientific questions. To religion, they are not. To religion, one can be investigated to any end, and any answer that is reached will be valid (the ipod HDD). The other subject though is full of taboos that cannot be touched upon. Its sacred and not up for debate. You have preconceived notions of what the answer must be in the end and therefore any idea to the contrary is threatening and not allowed. The very notion of god is up for debate to a scientist. It is not for a christian. That is because, by definition, a real scientist is objective, and a real christian is not.

Second, you prove my point about using religion as a shortcut to moral superiority:

I mean it's about as idiotic to say that as it would be for me to accuse you of picking and choosing parts of religion to follow, because you want to be good person and not steal, kill, etc.

I don't steal, I don't kill and I am a good person. I do what is right not because of some scary guy in the clouds, but because it is better for the society which I choose to be a part of. My morals are based on reason, not fear. And above all, I don't pretend like I have some golden ticket to the great chocolate factory in the sky and then use that bullshit to try and laud myself above others who I perceive as having a silver ticket at best. Pretending to have a monopoly on morality is probably my second biggest beef with religious nuts (the first being trying to fuck with real science).

[Asmadai]

As I point I've already made in this thread - many of your 'scientists' who've made these 'scientific' breakthroughs that you so fervently uphold...*gasp*....believed in God.

Guess those guys weren't 'real' scientists. Oh well.

[Smocca]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

As I point I've already made in this thread - many of your 'scientists' who've made these 'scientific' breakthroughs that you so fervently uphold...*gasp*....believed in God.

Guess those guys weren't 'real' scientists. Oh well.

You're fucking hopeless, I'm sorry.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

As I point I've already made in this thread - many of your 'scientists' who've made these 'scientific' breakthroughs that you so fervently uphold...*gasp*....believed in God.

Guess those guys weren't 'real' scientists. Oh well.

Did they believe in a God or Christianity's version?

They could show everything the Bible says is bullshit, but still hold onto some driving force of a God....just not the organized religion one.

It's an important distinction. Christianity's is a bit more.....strict. And if it's not Christianity's, then Christianity's would damn them to hell.

[Arakkis]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

Medicine?

I mean shit, that's just for starters.

Dude, seriously you are making this too easy. Large corporations (i.e. Phizer, Merck) produce medicines not out of a sense of moral responsibility, but for a profit. If people will die without the medicine, why not give it away and be a not for profit group? Why, because people will pay out their nose to stay alive, and do! Sure the big drug companies give some medicine away to Africa and other third world countries, but they are not just doing it to be nice guys, they get a huge tax write-off for that shit.

I think a lot of you proud atheists forget where you vehemently argue we came from. Man started out as an ape. When an ape wants something they will not hesitate to kill whatever is in their way to get it. Do you really think a strong internal moral code is what kept ancient man from tearing each other apart long enough to learn how to farm and develop architecture? No, it was fear. Fear of the unknown fed by shamans/medicine men to get early man to stop killing each other and evolve. Don't believe me? Read this article on the book The God Gene from Time magazine. It is a strong secular argument for the role of religion and spirituality in the ascendancy of man. I linked the second page since it has the TLDR part. Having a genetic capacity to have strong religious experiences allowed religion to shape society. This is why all of the earliest human civilizations all over the world were built around temples. So when you folks continually say religion has no place in society you forget that society is here BECAUSE of religion.

[Bizanich]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

Dude, seriously you are making this too easy. Large corporations (i.e. Phizer, Merck) produce medicines not out of a sense of moral responsibility, but for a profit. If people will die without the medicine, why not give it away and be a not for profit group? Why, because people will pay out their nose to stay alive, and do! Sure the big drug companies give some medicine away to Africa and other third world countries, but they are not just doing it to be nice guys, they get a huge tax write-off for that shit.

Let me say upfront that I could have totally misread him, but I thought his point was that some religious zealots will outright refuse medical treatment in favor of praying or heavenly intervention and he considered that immoral.

It's actually how someone I know became crippled due to Polio.

I could have been totally off on what he meant by it, admittedly, he was kind of ranting.

[Smocca]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

Dude, seriously you are making this too easy. Large corporations (i.e. Phizer, Merck) produce medicines not out of a sense of moral responsibility, but for a profit. If people will die without the medicine, why not give it away and be a not for profit group? Why, because people will pay out their nose to stay alive, and do! Sure the big drug companies give some medicine away to Africa and other third world countries, but they are not just doing it to be nice guys, they get a huge tax write-off for that shit.

I think a lot of you proud atheists forget where you vehemently argue we came from. Man started out as an ape. When an ape wants something they will not hesitate to kill whatever is in their way to get it. Do you really think a strong internal moral code is what kept ancient man from tearing each other apart long enough to learn how to farm and develop architecture? No, it was fear. Fear of the unknown fed by shamans/medicine men to get early man to stop killing each other and evolve. Don't believe me? Read this article on the book The God Gene from Time magazine. It is a strong secular argument for the role of religion and spirituality in the ascendancy of man. I linked the second page since it has the TLDR part. Having a genetic capacity to have strong religious experiences allowed religion to shape society. This is why all of the earliest human civilizations all over the world were built around temples. So when you folks continually say religion has no place in society you forget that society is here BECAUSE of religion.

Really interesting stuff and I've had a lot of the same thoughts about religions place over our time in history (no sarcasm). I think it definitely has been used as a tool to help form our current society. To say it hasn't had a massive effect on it would be ridiculous, and I would certainly grant that there have been some positive effects (though the amount of positive and negative effects of religion overall are largely up for debate I think).

But that is all irrelevant to the current debate. Even if we evolved to believe in god, it would have no relevance to the truth of his existence. It can be entirely possible for a delusion to be beneficial.

I mean I never got into philosophy but isn't that what Nietzsche meant when he said god is dead? We are to the point where we should be done with this crap. Yea (maybe) it was a great and useful tool but it is unnecessary because we are smart enough as a society now that we understand the advantages of those morals.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Bizanich

Let me say upfront that I could have totally misread him, but I thought his point was that some religious zealots will outright refuse medical treatment in favor of praying or heavenly intervention and he considered that immoral.

It's actually how someone I know became crippled due to Polio.

I could have been totally off on what he meant by it, admittedly, he was kind of ranting.

Those kinds of people are just all kinds of fucked up. I believe in God, sure, but not even I think God will intervene whenever someone is sick and will spiritually heal them. That's borderline if not full blown insanity, and a misinterpretation of the text.

[Grumath]

Originally Posted by Smocca

Really interesting stuff and I've had a lot of the same thoughts about religions place over our time in history (no sarcasm). I think it definitely has been used as a tool to help form our current society. To say it hasn't had a massive effect on it would be ridiculous, and I would certainly grant that there have been some positive effects (though the amount of positive and negative effects of religion overall are largely up for debate I think).

But that is all irrelevant to the current debate. Even if we evolved to believe in god, it would have no relevance to the truth of his existence. It can be entirely possible for a delusion to be beneficial.

I mean I never got into philosophy but isn't that what Nietzsche meant when he said god is dead? We are to the point where we should be done with this crap. Yea (maybe) it was a great and useful tool but it is unnecessary because we are smart enough as a society now that we understand the advantages of those morals.

Training wheels. Its time for humanity to grow its pubes and ride for real. We aren't in the frightened bawling infancy of our species anymore. Religion was the first attempt at many things including science, philosophy, history, etc. And it served well. But the first attempt is always the worst attempt.

[Arakkis]

Originally Posted by Grumath

Training wheels. Its time for humanity to grow its pubes and ride for real. We aren't in the frightened bawling infancy of our species anymore. Religion was the first attempt at many things including science, philosophy, history, etc. And it served well. But the first attempt is always the worst attempt.

Such casual arrogance. Do you watch the news ever?

[Lefazz]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

Do you really think a strong internal moral code is what kept ancient man from tearing each other apart long enough to learn how to farm and develop architecture? No, it was fear. Fear of the unknown fed by shamans/medicine men to get early man to stop killing each other and evolve.

I don't necessarily agree with this. I believe empathy is an evolutionary trait that help helped us survive. We're not especially adapted to exist in the wild alone, you know. We are a social species and obviously if anyone had a genetic tendency to harm individuals in the group they would've been weeded out pretty quickly. We could have not been successful if the majority of us were killing each other.

So, yeah, I think basic moral codes are a selective trait via evolution.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

Dude, seriously you are making this too easy. Large corporations (i.e. Phizer, Merck) produce medicines not out of a sense of moral responsibility, but for a profit. If people will die without the medicine, why not give it away and be a not for profit group? Why, because people will pay out their nose to stay alive, and do! Sure the big drug companies give some medicine away to Africa and other third world countries, but they are not just doing it to be nice guys, they get a huge tax write-off for that shit.

Hey, any time you want to rant about corporate greed (specifically when it comes to big Pharma), I'll be right there with you. However, this has very little to do with an example of science advancing morality, like you asked for. Human beings came up with medicine to tend for the sick (like Jesus Non-Existent Christ said to do). Science drove a great many advances in medicine, making the world a better place. You asked for an example, and there it is.

[Jedah]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

Medicine?

I mean shit, that's just for starters.

I don't at all agree with a word coming out of Arakkis' mouth at this point, but science is inherently amoral. Science hasn't done a thing to advance morality because thats not the role or scope of science; ethics and morals are intangible values, and science deals exclusively with the physical and the readily observable.