Ben Stein Expelled

[Arakkis]

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Thats why it doesnt make sense...you dont understand it. You see a bug that resembles a flower and then leaping to the conclusion that bug evolved in a narrow defined path by magic to resemble a flower. First off orchid mantis's alter their coloration based on environment as they develop and molt. Its not a specific mutation making them pink to match a pink flower. Its a trait to alter their coloration based on environment over the span of their lives. Its not nearly as mystical as you make it appear.

Unfathomable amounts of mantis evolved in unfathomable ways. You seem to also discount the behavior and actions of the species as it dictates evolution. Its not only how a trait helps something survive. Survival means nothing if you cant attract a mate. So now could species on some instinctual/bug intelligence level select mates based on how they resemble their environment?
Id be willing to accept the idea that genetic memory is also an evolved trait before i rely on invisible magical friends. That female mantis select mates upon criteria for survival even further "refining" evolved traits beyond pure survival. The example of the mantis isnt even one of the stranger examples. Faith isnt required to understand we dont know everything about evolution. You are just randomly imposing what you WANT to believe.

Are you serious? I want to see some literature on this. You are telling me that mantids can alter their appearance within a single lifetime? IMO that is even more amazing than what I first believed because the outer covering of all insects, chitin, is not a made of living cells. With chameleons or octapi there are specialized cells that can rapidly change their pigments through intercellular chemical reactions, but if what you are saying is true the cells that produce the chitin slowly change the pigments and outer structures to match wherever the mantis is living. Now that is amazing.

And voodoochile78, you apparently don't understand what I am saying if you think I owned myself. Only the second argument can be refuted by throwing time at it, since it is a nonrandom process. The first one has to have the cosmic dice rolled an insurmountable amount of times to get to the point of my example.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Arakkis

Are you serious? I want to see some literature on this. You are telling me that mantids can alter their appearance within a single lifetime? IMO that is even more amazing than what I first believed because the outer covering of all insects, chitin, is not a made of living cells. With chameleons or octapi there are specialized cells that can rapidly change their pigments through intercellular chemical reactions, but if what you are saying is true the cells that produce the chitin slowly change the pigments and outer structures to match wherever the mantis is living. Now that is amazing.

And voodoochile78, you apparently don't understand what I am saying if you think I owned myself. Only the second argument can be refuted by throwing time at it, since it is a nonrandom process. The first one has to have the cosmic dice rolled an insurmountable amount of times to get to the point of my example.

Just google "mantis" and read for 10 minutes. There are some that will molt and turn black after a wildfire as well. As they molt their coloration alters to be more in line with their surroundings. The pink ones are rare tho kind of like an albino human. But they can vary greatly in coloration and such. The really weird shit is the insanely complex relationships that exist between species. Parasites that infect and control the brains and behavior of only a specific kind of host. The way bees can relay specific coordinates using a language thats encoded behavior in their genes.

And any number of highly specific and complex behaviors that are far more interesting than superficial coloration. I still dont see how any of these things directly implies the work of a deity. Its amazing shit for sure but just because its amazing doesnt imply a god. If anything relying on a god to explain it detracts from it.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Laedrun

lol, christians got their mythology about creation from the fucking Jews. How is it crazy for a jew to believe the shit they made up?

How's the Creationist movement in Israel coming along? Do their politicians demagogue about how teaching evolution leads to school shootings (or in their case, PLO bombings)? How did their Scopes Monkey trial turn out?

Oh right, Jews don't believe in that shit anymore. In this day and age, Creationism is Christian phenomenon.

[Arbitrary]

A key component of Judaism is asking questions and having discussions. It is quite different than the faith based lockstep of Christianity.

[Tbird]

A key component of Judaism is asking questions and having discussions. It is quite different than the faith based lockstep of Christianity.

That might be why Judaism has a real problem of keeping people coming back to temple after they've had their Bar/Bat Mitzvahs.

An orthodox rabbi who taught one of my sunday school classes pretty much admitted that the 7 days of creation were not literally true. God didn't create the world in 7 human days, but in 7 "God days", which is like saying that the 7 days were more like 3.4 billion years of evolution. And here is that coming from a guy who doesn't drive a car on the sabbath and doesn't shave his beard ever. The bible is a way of explaining how the world is, and that the language it was written in didn't have the terms able to properly describe the world how we know it today. I took this method of thinking and applied it to other biblical stories, like Noah's ark. It takes a lot of imagination, but Noah's ark might be used to explain natural selection. Only the fittest animals survived natural selection, like how only the animals who went on the ark survived. Now the guy who came up with the Noah's ark story didn't know shit about natural selection or how it worked, but he made some similar observations and then came up with an analogy to explain it. One thing that is important to remember is that the Bible has been translated into another language, and the meaning of words change over time. People have been coming up with their own interpretations of the bible for centuries, so you might as come up with some of your own yourself instead of listening to some asshole's interpretation.

I think thats what Jesus meant to teach, was that God has a personal relationship with you is all that mattered. Going to church or reading the bible are completely unnecessary in order to have a relationship with God. And even if you say you are atheist, there is still some "force" in the universe to believe in, even though it doesn't have a personal relationship with you. I'm sure that even atheists find themselves praying out of habit sometimes when they need something, irrationally.

Judaism doesn't threaten damnation on people for their sins, they don't really talk much at all about heaven or hell. So there is nothing to scare them into going to church every week. The ones who continue to go do it for the sheer joy or camaraderie. I'm an atheist, but Judaism does makes a lot more sense than Christianity. For example, if God really said, "Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.". Here he clearly states that there is only 1, and not 3 Gods, like in the Holy Trinity . The Old Testament clearly states that there is only one God, and that he'd like to keep it that way. But then everything is fucked up in the New Testament when Jesus and Mary and the Holy Ghost come from left field and say, "Oh yeah, that shit God said about there being one god, well that wasn't really true. He had a kid named Jesus" The messiah of the Jews, who Christians think have already come(Jesus) was never meant to be the son of God. Of course there are different beliefs, but like I said before, that everyone is free to come up with their own interpretation, because there is no way to know for sure unless God himself comes down and tells us. It still makes zero fucking sense how you go from 1 God (singular) to Holy Trinity. Seems like such a fucking blatant contradiction that one does not equal 3. Now if there was a hint anywhere in the Old Testament were God said, "Ok for now you worship only me, but in the next installation of my Testament, which I'll call the New Testament, you will have to worship my son. But I am God and I haven't gotten around to writing the New Testament yet, because I'm too busy" But nowhere does it say that. And I seem to be the only one who cares about this contradiction, because most of you probably don't see it as a problem.

To summarize: Judaism = Monotheism, Christianity = Polytheism (3 gods in 1 is still 3, bitch)

/rant off

[Laedrun]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

How's the Creationist movement in Israel coming along? Do their politicians demagogue about how teaching evolution leads to school shootings (or in their case, PLO bombings)? How did their Scopes Monkey trial turn out?

Oh right, Jews don't believe in that shit anymore. In this day and age, Creationism is Christian phenomenon.

generalize much?

I'm sure you've heard about orthodox Jews in Israel beating women on busses who dont give up their seats to men? Every religion has its wacko fundy crowd. Hell, i wonder what muslim fundies would do to someone who questioned their fantasy creation bullshit?

It's just silly that even if a Jew says it, its gotta be the christians fault!1!!! pretty fuckin stupid imo ;p

[Chrisb3]

Originally Posted by Tbird

A key component of Judaism is asking questions and having discussions. It is quite different than the faith based lockstep of Christianity.

That might be why Judaism has a real problem of keeping people coming back to temple after they've had their Bar/Bat Mitzvahs.

An orthodox rabbi who taught one of my sunday school classes pretty much admitted that the 7 days of creation were not literally true. God didn't create the world in 7 human days, but in 7 "God days", which is like saying that the 7 days were more like 3.4 billion years of evolution. And here is that coming from a guy who doesn't drive a car on the sabbath and doesn't shave his beard ever. The bible is a way of explaining how the world is, and that the language it was written in didn't have the terms able to properly describe the world how we know it today. I took this method of thinking and applied it to other biblical stories, like Noah's ark. It takes a lot of imagination, but Noah's ark might be used to explain natural selection. Only the fittest animals survived natural selection, like how only the animals who went on the ark survived. Now the guy who came up with the Noah's ark story didn't know shit about natural selection or how it worked, but he made some similar observations and then came up with an analogy to explain it. One thing that is important to remember is that the Bible has been translated into another language, and the meaning of words change over time. People have been coming up with their own interpretations of the bible for centuries, so you might as come up with some of your own yourself instead of listening to some asshole's interpretation.

Nice theory but I think I could turn Nostradamus or Harry Potter into similar analogies
You can find whatever you want if you look hard enough, some people think you can skip every third letter or whatever and predict 9/11 and Princess Diana's death (predicting them after the event happened of course).

I think thats what Jesus meant to teach, was that God has a personal relationship with you is all that mattered. Going to church or reading the bible are completely unnecessary in order to have a relationship with God. And even if you say you are atheist, there is still some "force" in the universe to believe in, even though it doesn't have a personal relationship with you. I'm sure that even atheists find themselves praying out of habit sometimes when they need something, irrationally.

I kinda agree about Jesus, if you look past all the Roman bullshit he is really just trying to get us to live good lives for ourselves and not for some church. Christianity is like Communism, it's great in theroy but no one ever tried it.

Judaism doesn't threaten damnation on people for their sins, they don't really talk much at all about heaven or hell. So there is nothing to scare them into going to church every week. The ones who continue to go do it for the sheer joy or camaraderie. I'm an atheist, but Judaism does makes a lot more sense than Christianity. For example, if God really said, "Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.". Here he clearly states that there is only 1, and not 3 Gods, like in the Holy Trinity . The Old Testament clearly states that there is only one God, and that he'd like to keep it that way. But then everything is fucked up in the New Testament when Jesus and Mary and the Holy Ghost come from left field and say, "Oh yeah, that shit God said about there being one god, well that wasn't really true. He had a kid named Jesus" The messiah of the Jews, who Christians think have already come(Jesus) was never meant to be the son of God. Of course there are different beliefs, but like I said before, that everyone is free to come up with their own interpretation, because there is no way to know for sure unless God himself comes down and tells us. It still makes zero fucking sense how you go from 1 God (singular) to Holy Trinity. Seems like such a fucking blatant contradiction that one does not equal 3. Now if there was a hint anywhere in the Old Testament were God said, "Ok for now you worship only me, but in the next installation of my Testament, which I'll call the New Testament, you will have to worship my son. But I am God and I haven't gotten around to writing the New Testament yet, because I'm too busy" But nowhere does it say that. And I seem to be the only one who cares about this contradiction, because most of you probably don't see it as a problem.

To summarize: Judaism = Monotheism, Christianity = Polytheism (3 gods in 1 is still 3, bitch)

/rant off

But Jesus said it so it must be true!?

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Laedrun

generalize much?

I'm sure you've heard about orthodox Jews in Israel beating women on busses who dont give up their seats to men? Every religion has its wacko fundy crowd. Hell, i wonder what muslim fundies would do to someone who questioned their fantasy creation bullshit?

Ben Stein isn't an orthodox Jew who beats women on busses. He's a Secular Jew who was born in Washington D.C. and was educated in New York and Connecticut. As sure as anyone can know someone else's thoughts, I am sure that Ben Stein does not believe in the bullshit that he is peddling to Fundamentalist Christians.

Besides, I bet that woman-beater even believes in evolution.

[Screamfeeder]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

As sure as anyone can know someone else's thoughts, I am sure that Ben Stein does not believe in the bullshit that he is peddling to Fundamentalist Christians.

Which, if true, makes him even worse than your typical Evangelical. It makes him a snake oil salesmen preying on peoples spiritualism as well as helping to weaken the scientific works based on thousands of years of research and experimentation.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

Which, if true, makes him even worse than your typical Evangelical. It makes him a snake oil salesmen preying on peoples spiritualism as well as helping to weaken the scientific works based on thousands of years of research and experimentation.

Or a dude who made a movie...

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Screamfeeder

as well as helping to weaken the scientific works based on thousands of years of research and experimentation.

Aww is someone pissing on something you believe in?

Boo fucking hoo. Welcome to the fucking club.

[Zerai]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

Aww is someone pissing on something you believe in?

Boo fucking hoo. Welcome to the fucking club.

No, someone is spreading lies and misinformation. Without proof.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Zerai

No, someone is spreading lies and misinformation. Without proof.

Eye of the Beholder.

[Arbitrary]

Quick! Leap behind relativism for protection!

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

Quick! Leap behind relativism for protection!

Its alot less stupid than equating all opinions as beliefs whether based on imagination or empirical evidence that he was attempting before.