Ben Stein Expelled

[Grumath]

Religion still poses answers to scientific questions though. There IS a huge amount of overlap. "How old and by what means was the earth/universe created?" IS a scientific question that religion attempts to answer. How humans came to be in our current form, if its possible to outlive your death, if its possible to be born of a virgin, if its possible to be resurrected days after your death. These are questions about BIOLOGY. Not of faith or belief.

[Xakk]

Originally Posted by Grumath

Religion still poses answers to scientific questions though.

God of the gaps.

[Kaio]

Originally Posted by Lleauaric~EW

Maybe one day the paths of science and God will cross. But we aren't there, and scientists don't say it isnt possible, they just say they have zero evidence, so it doesnt belong in their work.

Like I said a few pages ago, there is no connection only because the totally unprovable/irrational things religion posed were stricken out for the most part. Whole religions are gone because of this but Christianity has gone though changes as well to accommodate our better understanding of the world.

edit: Ooh, what xakk said was perfect, "god of the gaps." It was true 3000 years ago and it's true today. The gaps have only gotten much more limited.

Oh, I'm not saying it's science's job to uh answer the question of religion, just showing how it diminished religion in our daily lives.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Grumath

Religion still poses answers to scientific questions though. There IS a huge amount of overlap. "How old and by what means was the earth/universe created?" IS a scientific question that religion attempts to answer. How humans came to be in our current form, if its possible to outlive your death, if its possible to be born of a virgin, if its possible to be resurrected days after your death. These are questions about BIOLOGY. Not of faith or belief.

Except religion doesn't really look for the answers, it just sorta makes em up by the seat of their pants.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Millie

And that "loving parent" condemns his children to eternal torment and endless anguish if they are unlucky enough to have been born to a different religion? That doesn't seem very loving, does it?

Sorry Millie, you have to learn somehow.

LOL, just kidding, I don't believe that a loving God could damn anyone to Hell for eternity. We have rehab, souls should too! God is neat, but you can't go believing everything some Jew wrote down three thousand years ago.

[Lefazz]

I love how people keep saying religion "answers" questions. Religions are nothing more than man's philosophizing. Nothing more than opinions. There's not a thing in any religion that's factual.

[Regime]

[Schatze]

Well, it can answer "questions" in a subjective sense, in that people can derive comfort from the cold, cruel world by believing that there is something else, that there is a grand unknowable reason, etc.

I don't mind religion, I don't really care about it. But religion is a personal thing. Culturally, that's how it works around here. For a politician, there's no quicker way to lose an election than bringing religion into the equation as a wedge issue. Proselytizing or talking about faith in daily life except in a circumstance that are invited is also socially unacceptable.

When it's NOT like the above, then I take issue. I think this is definitely one of the major differences (of the few that exist) between Canada and the US. Plus religion really is on the decline. It seems the boomers just... stopped... indoctrinating their kids. I can recall every single seriously religious person around my age I've ever met. Grand total; 3.

I think it's almost a shame. I wish I could be a 'religious/spiritual person'. I think it would add aspects to my life beyond those that I currently have. I don't mean turn into a raging fundy, but be able to embrace the more progressive and sometimes beautiful sentiments that some priests/churches espouse. It's just that I can't. My parents didn't indoctrinate me during the key period of childhood incredulity, and I was busy delving into science, archeology, biology, astronomy during that period through the cultivated love of reading. So when I look at religions, I just can't "believe" even though sometimes I wish I could. It just conflicts to much with what I know of the rational, secular world, and the rational secular worldview I've been exposed to my entire life.

[Ronne]

My only question is: when the hell did Ben Stein go insane?

[Wash]

Holy shit. I saw the title of the movie and ignored it for weeks, figured it was some lame Ben Stein comedy gimmick (it sounded like the title for one of his lame game shows). Today I finally check it out and... wow, it's really a movie about creationism.

Wow.

Yeah. When did he go insane? It was the Visine commercials, wasn't it. Now we know, repeated overuse of Visine makes you batshit insane.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Schatze

Well, it can answer "questions" in a subjective sense, in that people can derive comfort from the cold, cruel world by believing that there is something else, that there is a grand unknowable reason, etc.

I don't mind religion, I don't really care about it. But religion is a personal thing. Culturally, that's how it works around here. For a politician, there's no quicker way to lose an election than bringing religion into the equation as a wedge issue. Proselytizing or talking about faith in daily life except in a circumstance that are invited is also socially unacceptable.

When it's NOT like the above, then I take issue. I think this is definitely one of the major differences (of the few that exist) between Canada and the US. Plus religion really is on the decline. It seems the boomers just... stopped... indoctrinating their kids. I can recall every single seriously religious person around my age I've ever met. Grand total; 3.

I think it's almost a shame. I wish I could be a 'religious/spiritual person'. I think it would add aspects to my life beyond those that I currently have. I don't mean turn into a raging fundy, but be able to embrace the more progressive and sometimes beautiful sentiments that some priests/churches espouse. It's just that I can't. My parents didn't indoctrinate me during the key period of childhood incredulity, and I was busy delving into science, archeology, biology, astronomy during that period through the cultivated love of reading. So when I look at religions, I just can't "believe" even though sometimes I wish I could. It just conflicts to much with what I know of the rational, secular world, and the rational secular worldview I've been exposed to my entire life.

Where do you live Schatze?! I never really noticed the ultra-religious either, until I went to college and started seeing these fucking nuts and their organizations (Baptist Student Union, Campus Crusade for Christ, blah blah). I have never met a nuttier bunch of folks. Very sweet people, but why would you print a card with the 'truths' you must know to go to Heaven? Or rather, NOT go to Hell? And hand it out to people? I cannot comprehend. It was hilarious to see a hardcore goth on my floor start dating a religious girl and turn all Bible-thumper in the space of a month, though. She strong-armed that conversion with the pussy.

I suppose my biggest gripe was the fact that all of these organizations requested separate budgets from the student government. And it was shit like bringing nutball religious speakers to campus. My tuition paying for a student government budget so five different groups with the same purpose can all get money. They didn't allow a Muslim student organization, either, but I think that was because of security concerns in the redneck South. Maybe the Campus Crusade for Christ would pwn them.

[Snugglebear]

Originally Posted by Wash

Holy shit. I saw the title of the movie and ignored it for weeks, figured it was some lame Ben Stein comedy gimmick (it sounded like the title for one of his lame game shows). Today I finally check it out and... wow, it's really a movie about creationism.

Wow.

Yeah. When did he go insane? It was the Visine commercials, wasn't it. Now we know, repeated overuse of Visine makes you batshit insane.

GET THE RED OUT MOTHERF*****

[Wowbagger]

Religion and science have been at war for as long as I have ever known.

The problem with creationism vs evolution is that there is no real proof. And by "proof" I mean 100% proof -- but then again, no reputable scientist will ever state with 100% certainty of anything. And that's why it's called "The Theory of Evolution" ... not because it's not proven, but because it's as close to a fact as "science" really needs to be. Incidentally, that's why gravity is also known as a theory -- and on that note, the "Theory of Gravity" is considered less viable than the Theory of Evolution. Consider that point the next time you drop something, creationists!

Considering the burden of proof, I encourage you to watch this rather long video of a conversation between Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss here (not inserting it because I don't know how Videosift does the 12-part-linking bits).

However, the problem with every creationist is that they just outright dismiss science, often to the expense of others or their own ignorance. For example, there are many case studies of the non-randomness of evolution in species. However, creationists will often say "Well, prove it! That hop doesn't make sense!" The key point is, to someone who actually understands science, it makes perfect sense. And you too can learn it, it's not an elitist club. But it's like saying that nuclear fission is impossible because you don't believe in it -- or rather, you don't understand it. There's a big difference.

The funny thing is that evolution isn't without holes. We don't have everything. But the mere fact that we can draw a line that has gaps still proves there is a line.

In any case, I'll close with this bit..



EDIT: Yes, of course, you can draw the line that evolution leads to atheism, which I'm sure just by mentioning Dawkins in this thread implies. Religion itself is founded on a belief in something no mortal can prove. If you really want to base your life on that, great. I'm not here to convert anyone. However, I'm not one of those people - I like science.

I find it increasingly funny that every creationist knows they can't prove it, yet they increasingly try to by using faith as the example. That's a poor science. A true theist should be at peace with their fellow man, which is where I have a fundamental problem with religion -- the increasing desire to convert someone. Guess what -- you don't have to suddenly become an athiest to believe in evolution. You can still believe in god and enjoy the science for what it is. There was a point where people did much the same thing, back when they thought the sun revolved around the earth. Heresy against your maker if you thought otherwise. Well, guess what... not that hypocritical anymore, and the religions' books keep changing...

I don't care that you don't believe in evolution. I just care that creationists even attempt to disprove it using malarky. I'm not trying to tell you there is no god, so kindly return the favor, and let it go.

[Schatze]

I'm Canadian, so religion is very different than in the states. One of the biggest concrete differences, I think. I go to a Catholic university.

The funny thing is there was a small Christian group on campus who had their funding withdrawn for rallying against abortion. If they had done it in a more diplomatic way, they would have retained funding. Instead, they took the "American fundamentalist" approach to being anti-choice.

The universities' stance is pro-freedom of speech, and not pro-abortion, but they used some rules regarding spreading of hate/intolerance/etc to wipe the whacky fundies out, at least with university dollars. I'd never even heard of this group until I saw it in the school newspaper. I believe the board of governors stated, "we're not pro-abortion, and we do not necessarily disagree with the group's message, but the incendiary rhetoric and hateful approach to spreading their message was patently unacceptable, and that sort of intolerance has no place in an academic environment."

It probably didn't hurt that the fundies were of course protestant while the Catholic element to the school (priests, nuns) are about as educated and liberal as you can possibly get (I.E. will advocate condoms etc. despite the pope's opinions). Up here, Catholics seem to have a good understanding of what faith is, what science is, and the difference between the two, and which is appropriate to communicate (unless solicited, I've had some interesting conversations about religions with some brilliant priests).

edit: the crazy fundy group were mostly American exchange students or students from Alberta and "fly over country" in Canada.

edit2: Catholics here just seem to be chill people, priests and nuns included. Whatever personal beliefs they have, I've never run into a Catholic who has tried to push their beliefs on anyone else. That ranges from administrators all the way up to our many Catholic Prime Ministers (for instance, gay marriage was instituted under a Catholic's watch). The protestant politicians are just catching on that pushing religion or religious moral wedge issues is a great way to lose elections, so maybe there'll be some top down change there. If I could muster belief, I'd definitely go Catholic. They seem to have it together upstairs in Canada.

To be fair, most Protestants are also very chill in regards to religion and society. It's just the protestant politicians who can't seem to fathom that religion has no place in government. Ironically enough, even though we have no enshrined separation of church and state, I think we pull it off much, much better than the US simply because people's attitudes recognize that the two should be separated (the vast majority at least). Recent Ontario election had an unpopular incumbent and a Conservative protestant who tried to use religion as a wedge issue. The result was a landslide victory for the unpopular incumbent simply due to the sheer distaste using religion as a wedge elicits in the electorate.

[Laedrun]

Originally Posted by Schatze

The universities' stance is pro-freedom of speech, and not pro-abortion, but they used some rules regarding spreading of hate/intolerance/etc to wipe the whacky fundies out, at least with university dollars. I'd never even heard of this group until I saw it in the school newspaper. I believe the board of governors stated, "we're not pro-abortion, and we do not necessarily disagree with the group's message, but the incendiary rhetoric and hateful approach to spreading their message was patently unacceptable, and that sort of intolerance has no place in an academic environment.".

damn, shit like that reminds me of Brigitte Bardot, keeps getting arrested in france for talking shit (true, false, whatever) about Islam ;p

It's one of the biggest reasons I'll vote for a lunatic fundie type, anything to keep euro-socialist faggotry further away from our seats of power. Shit, i dont care if he thinks Micky Mouse shit out the universe in 1952 and were all just peanuts in some giant animated turd. ;p

anyone watch the movie from the point of view of " liberals getting shit on is funny, no matter who does the shitting"...if so, was it fun? or boring pseudo-fact shit?