Ben Stein Expelled

[PerritoBites]

Phase 3 activated accuse the atheist of the following:
-Atheists have more faith than theists
-Atheist have their own religion, yet they complain about religion
-Atheist must believe in something
-Atheists wouldn't have morals if it wasn't for religion
-Atheists don't care about anyone or anything, just their own family (a co-worker said that to me talking about another person T_T)

Edit: Damn I post slow...

[Astrocreep]

It is true that when a tragedy strikes its the churches and religious organizations that are out helping the victims. i dont recall too many atheist societies out there giving people a place to stay or food to eat. im sure im wrong but im just calling it like i see it.

[Dirus]

Originally Posted by Grumath

Here is a 2 hour PBS NOVA Special on the subject of ID vs Evolution

NOVA | Intelligent Design on Trial | Watch the Program | PBS

Watched this the other night. It is a pretty good program that explains a good bit about this debate.

On a side note...thanks Millie for attempting to keep the thread on topic.

[PerritoBites]

If ID is true, then why did God designed us this way, then demands that we act against a lot of our human nature? (ei. sexual desires)

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Astrocreep

It is true that when a tragedy strikes its the churches and religious organizations that are out helping the victims. i dont recall too many atheist societies out there giving people a place to stay or food to eat. im sure im wrong but im just calling it like i see it.

You don't need religion to be a good decent person. Religion does not have a monopoly on morality.

[voodoochile78]

Does anyone actually believe that an educated secular jew is really a creationist?

Can anyone else name a well-educated secular jew that's shilling for the Christian fundamentalist crowd when it comes to evolution?

Anybody?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Ben Stein is shilling for money.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

If ID is true, then why did God designed us this way, then demands that we act against a lot of our human nature? (ei. sexual desires)

I'm not religious in the least, but from what I remember of Sunday School way back in the day, the argument against the perfection of mankind was that God intentionally made us imperfect so that we could improve ourselves and try to be more like him. If we started out perfect, we'd have nowhere to go, and there would be no point to our existence. But being imperfect, we have a challenge to overcome, and we are more noble for it.

Please don't bite me for saying that; I'm not advocating for or against that position one way or the other. I'm just offering an explanation for your question.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

If ID is true, then why did God designed us this way, then demands that we act against a lot of our human nature? (ei. sexual desires)

(Speaking as a believer, hate on it if you must. )

Because acting on every impulse the human body has can be looked at as immoral. If someone has the sexual urge to beat off in public, doesn't mean they should do it, but it doesn't mean God is contradictory/non-existant because these feelings exist in something he designed.

It's not a demand, it's a request. You still make the choice. That's what He wants you to do.

[PerritoBites]

Well that explanation would make no sense then, if there is no point of creating us to be perfect, then there wouldn't be a point of wanting us to be perfect. If he created us this way to give us a purpose, then why not let us be how he created us?
(this was a response to millie)

"It's not a demand, it's a request. You still make the choice. That's what He wants you to do."

I'm pretty sure that if you don't follow his "requests" you will suffer for eternity in hell.

[Indiana]

Incoming blanket reply for any and all logic attacks on beliefs: God works in mysterious ways.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

Well that explanation would make no sense then, if there is no point of creating us to be perfect, then there wouldn't be a point of wanting us to be perfect. If he created us this way to give us a purpose, then why not let us be how he created us?
(this was a response to millie)

To play God's advocate (heh) for a second:

I don't think the expectation is that we will ever become perfect. Rather, God just wants us to have the free will to choose good over evil. We're more noble/interesting/etc when we are constantly trying to improve ourselves, versus if we're totally perfect or totally imperfect.

Perfection will never be attained by humanity, and thus, humanity will always strive for perfection. It's a perpetual carrot on a just-out-of-reach stick that is designed to make humanity complicated and interesting as a species.

The other argument I can see being made is sort of a slightly more sophisticated version of "God works in mysterious ways." That is to say, God is so far above our understanding that we can't really say what He considers to be "perfect." Imposing human constraints of understanding on God's work is missing the point, to a certain extent. It's sort of like painting a picture of a building, and then critiquing the building itself based on the painting.

[The Ancient]

That is a poor disproof of God and it certainly isn't scientific. As children we don't understand a lot of what our parents say or do but sometimes there are reasons for things that we just don't have the scope to understand.

I'm ashamed that I couldn't resist coming back.

Edit: Something like Millie's second statement.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by PerritoBites

Well that explanation would make no sense then, if there is no point of creating us to be perfect, then there wouldn't be a point of wanting us to be perfect. If he created us this way to give us a purpose, then why not let us be how he created us?
(this was a response to millie)

"It's not a demand, it's a request. You still make the choice. That's what He wants you to do."

I'm pretty sure that if you don't follow his "requests" you will suffer for eternity in hell.

He doesn't expect one to be perfect, nor does he really want you to strive for perfection. He asks you believe in Him, and follow moral guidelines no human being on the planet should object to following (save maybe the no getting drunk one). The whole point behind it is that He wants to give His creations the 'chance' to do what they want. That whole 'Free Will' thing. If He made us perfect without any influence from our own actions, based on the dogma of the religion why not just create us in Heaven and say fuck the whole Earth thing?

He designed us to make these choices on our own. Sure, the alternatives to following the rules sound like shit, but if you want to be a selfish jackass during your life that only does what you want to do when you want to do it no matter what anyone thinks, then you pretty much deserve that. You had your fun while you were alive, now pay.

Thats how I see it.

[PerritoBites]

Uhm you can't use the scientific method to prove something doesn't exist. How can you prove something doesn't exist if you can't observe it or experiment with it?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

He doesn't expect one to be perfect, nor does he really want you to strive for perfection. He asks you believe in Him, and follow moral guidelines no human being on the planet should object to following (save maybe the no getting drunk one). The whole point behind it is that He wants to give His creations the 'chance' to do what they want. That whole 'Free Will' thing. If He made us perfect without any influence from our own actions, based on the dogma of the religion why not just create us in Heaven and say fuck the whole Earth thing?

He designed us to make these choices on our own. Sure, the alternatives to following the rules sound like shit, but if you want to be a selfish jackass during your life that only does what you want to do when you want to do it no matter what anyone thinks, then you pretty much deserve that. You had your fun while you were alive, now pay.

Thats how I see it.

Could you clarify your views on what happens to people, who do not follow christian doctrine? And I'm still waiting for a reply, to what criteria you use, to determine which parts of the bible are allegory and which parts are to be taken literally.