Watchmen

[Tyen]

Rorshach drove me insane. I was relieved when he was killed.

[Tolin]

Originally Posted by Cad

Who predetermined it? What causal chain? You've slapped some words together there that sound fancy but don't actually make any sense.

I'm not saying anyone pre-determined Manhattan's action. If you re-read my initial post, it's not ONE thing that has created Manhattan's actions, but a culmination of every event in existence. That's the whole idea behind a causal chain of events. Every action, from the first most minute atomic shift has some effect on this massive chain of actions and reactions.

Manhattan is completely helpless as to what his reaction to Ozy's plan will be, because it's already been predetermined by every action or event leading up to this point in his existence. He might have an urge to stop Ror from spilling the beans, but that's due to some infinite amount of variables that culminate in him feeling that way.


Manhattan sees all of these variables, which is why he sees the past, future, present all at once. He understands how every single action that occurs at all times effects this giant chain of events. Regardless of that fact however, he still has zero ability to change anything, other then what has already been planned for him. He still goes through the motions though, so to speak.
He has God-like powers, but it was the time in the chain of events for a being to exist with God-like powers. Building a city on Mars was pre-determined from the time a T-rex was eating a Rhino in the jungle.

So to make it simpler for you Cad - In a deterministic view point - all variables are accountable, given enough resources, and given the ability to see how every single variable in existence reacts, one could hypothetically see the future, by mapping out all actions and reactions. Also is the ability to see back in time, by reverse mapping all reactions with their preceeding actions, so on and so forth. This would be what is considered a causal chain.

And you can make the Tachyons work logically I suppose by throwing in some B.S. about how it was pre-determined he wouldn't be able to see for that period of time, but it was a huge cop out for the character IMO, and ruined what was a pretty interesting character that explored the determinism philosophy.

[chaos]

Originally Posted by The Ancient

Nah he also doesn't stick around to see the future, if he did he'd have also made sure to destroy Rorshach's book as well. Basically all it boils down to is he hears a convincing argument from Ozymandias. Manhattan is godlike power and awareness built around a human psyche. He's just as susceptible to logic traps as the rest of us.

I also don't think Rorshach ever bought into Ozymandias's design. I don't think it was ever his intention to be a matyr but he realized the futility of trying to thwart Manhattan's will and perhaps didn't realize how literally Manhattan would take his yelling.

I think there's a lot going on with Rorshach, he is seriously mentally disturbed and has actually become this persona that he created for himself. His "code" is a big part of that. No compromise, not ever. I think in the end, finding himself alone against the smartest man in the world and the blue god and his best friend... I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to say that Rorshach gave up a little, just didn't care if he died or not. It's impossible to say for sure.

[fucker]

Originally Posted by Tolin

I'm not saying anyone pre-determined Manhattan's action. If you re-read my initial post, it's not ONE thing that has created Manhattan's actions, but a culmination of every event in existence. That's the whole idea behind a causal chain of events. Every action, from the first most minute atomic shift has some effect on this massive chain of actions and reactions.

Manhattan is completely helpless as to what his reaction to Ozy's plan will be, because it's already been predetermined by every action or event leading up to this point in his existence. He might have an urge to stop Ror from spilling the beans, but that's due to some infinite amount of variables that culminate in him feeling that way.


Manhattan sees all of these variables, which is why he sees the past, future, present all at once. He understands how every single action that occurs at all times effects this giant chain of events. Regardless of that fact however, he still has zero ability to change anything, other then what has already been planned for him. He still goes through the motions though, so to speak.
He has God-like powers, but it was the time in the chain of events for a being to exist with God-like powers. Building a city on Mars was pre-determined from the time a T-rex was eating a Rhino in the jungle.

So to make it simpler for you Cad - In a deterministic view point - all variables are accountable, given enough resources, and given the ability to see how every single variable in existence reacts, one could hypothetically see the future, by mapping out all actions and reactions. Also is the ability to see back in time, by reverse mapping all reactions with their preceeding actions, so on and so forth. This would be what is considered a causal chain.

And you can make the Tachyons work logically I suppose by throwing in some B.S. about how it was pre-determined he wouldn't be able to see for that period of time, but it was a huge cop out for the character IMO, and ruined what was a pretty interesting character that explored the determinism philosophy.

i have not read the comic, so i asume your interpretation is correct. However i will say that this is one of the most idiotic pseudo pholosophical bunch of nosense i have ever heard/seen/read

someone should really slap some sense in the autor's mind and help him get out of his little dark hole of nihilism and pessimistic vision of the world

the movie was pregnant with his "the man is fontamentally evil" message...now you tell me that in the comic he also tries to push the idea that "everything is predestined and nothing will change fate" ?

wow...talk about depressive vision of life....

[spronk]

The author of Dune realized the trap of prescience as well, and spent a lot of time in books 2-4 having the characters wrestle with the paralyzing nature of seeing the future and made undoing the ability a core part of God, Emperor of Dune (4th book I think?).

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Originally Posted by fucker

i have not read the comic, so i asume your interpretation is correct. However i will say that this is one of the most idiotic pseudo pholosophical bunch of nosense i have ever heard/seen/read

someone should really slap some sense in the autor's mind and help him get out of his little dark hole of nihilism and pessimistic vision of the world

the movie was pregnant with his "the man is fontamentally evil" message...now you tell me that in the comic he also tries to push the idea that "everything is predestined and nothing will change fate" ?

wow...talk about depressive vision of life....

Well, Alan Moore is a bit of a nut in his own right, however, I wouldn't blame Dr Manhatten on Moore's world view really. I think it was just a really impressive mental exercise and also a way to make a character that was omnipotent and impotent at the same time.

Also, god forbid, it was just another aspect of the story to make people think and debate.

[Jozu]

Holy fucking shit my brain hurts after reading the last page

I get the whole Manhattan sees time as being relative ect ect, but it still doesnt explain why he "had" to kill Rorshach instead of just teleporting him away with him, or sacrificing him in some other way. I mean fuck, the journal got out in the end anyway right?

He was leaving the earth behind, and he didn't give a flying fuck as to what else happened in the future besides what "he already knows", which makes my head want to explode.

[The Ancient]

Yeah, people are making it needlessly complicated it seems.

[The Noble Savage]

Originally Posted by Jozu

Holy fucking shit my brain hurts after reading the last page

I get the whole Manhattan sees time as being relative ect ect, but it still doesnt explain why he "had" to kill Rorshach instead of just teleporting him away with him, or sacrificing him in some other way. I mean fuck, the journal got out in the end anyway right?

He was leaving the earth behind, and he didn't give a flying fuck as to what else happened in the future besides what "he already knows", which makes my head want to explode.

He knew he was going to murder someone in the snow, he saw that much. He wasn't sure who, but he had a general idea of when (that period in time where his vision goes fuzzy).

You basically answer your own question though, "and he doesn't give a flying fuck"; is more or less the correct answer. He states in the film and comic that Silk Specter is his only connection to humanity. As much as he refers to Rorsharch and the others as "friends", the word doesn't really have the same meaning to him as us.

Originally Posted by Dr. Manhattan

A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts. Why should I be concerned?

As far as Rorsharch's journal, Manhattan leaves. Since his knowledge of the future is determined by his own personal experiences, he wouldn't know whether Ozymandius' plan worked nor would he know about Rorsharch's journal. And that's assuming it was printed and that's also assuming that the journal of a convicted murderer, prison escapee and all around mad man would really convince anyone of a super conspiracy. Especially when printed in some wacko newspaper.

Originally Posted by Dr. Manhatta

We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.

There is no future. There is no past. Do you see? Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time, when the whole design is visible in every facet.

The morality of my activities escapes me.

Edit:

Vorph:

I see what you're saying now, I misunderstood your statement initially. I partially agree that it's the audience's failure for drawing that conclusion, but as noted the other superhero films mentioned didn't leave the audience confused as to the abilities of the heroes. So I hold the director at fault as well for making them appear as superheroes which is strictly his addition and was not taken from the comic. Good example:

Comic: Rorsharch gets setup and ambushed by swat. He jumps out of a (second or third?) story window crashes into the ground and is incapacitated by the impact, beaten by cops and arrested.

Film: Jumps out of the window, lands and rolls starts beating the shit out of the swat team with his ninja skills and is finally taken down by a swarm of swat with their batons.

[Arbitrary]

Rorsharch's who deal was that there is no grey, merely swirling patterns of white and black that never blend. Dr. Manhattan taking him along would never have worked, he never would have complied, and he never would have compromised.

[Tyen]

Rorsharch is a dirty ginger.

[Jozu]

Thanx for the thorough explination Savage, I guess it all makes sense to me now.

And as far as Rorshach not compromising; say Manhattan did actually give a shit, im not sure Rorshach would have a choice whether or not Manhattan brought him to a new Galaxy or whatever. At least Rorshach could could be bitter and uncomprimising on some distant world rather than being splattered all over an arctic ice-sheet.

[Arbitrary]

He would rather be dead making such a gesture meaningless. In an effort to be more humane the opposite has occurred.

[Zhaun's_Shade]

Yeah, I feel pretty confident in the idea that Rorshach would have rather been dead than dragged along on some space vacation.

[Jozu]

Originally Posted by Zhaun's_Shade

Yeah, I feel pretty confident in the idea that Rorshach would have rather been dead than dragged along on some space vacation.

But what if he didnt have a choice? Then he could continue to fight crime and impose his morals on Aliens!!

But seriously, I get it. I guess Rorshach dying was unavoidable in the grand scheme of things. Still sucks though, ecspecially considering Ozy got to live.

All in all, the ending went down the road less traveled, which is a good thing I guess. Not all stories should have a perfect ending.