The Dark Knight

[Jabberwhacky]

I'm not missing anything. The guy should have resigned BEFORE doing it, not after. Fox's whole point is that it's so terrible it should not be done....o except this one time tee hee. That's the slippery slope that is always brought up in regards to wiretapping/torture/etc, you do it once and you're fucked. What is stopping Fox from doing it again? Is it the fact that the first time he went against his moral code he captured a madman? Seems like a good reason to do the same thing again...

And jesus christ, you guys with your "direness of the situation." THAT IS COMPLETELY PARALLEL TO BUSH'S REASONING. Batman and Lucius Fox used Bush's defense and DEFENDED IT. They got GOOD RESULTS. They SAVED THE DAY.

[Castigator]

Originally Posted by Lyrical

Why are you ignoring the fact that for the last 30 years the writers as well DC officials have told us that Bruce Wayne is the disguise?

I ignored it (or at least didn't reference it) because coming out of the movie, it was quite obvious the writers, director and actors of a movie called the TDK had ignored it (for now) in order to make a pretty damn decent movie out of a convoluted, mopped up and well-past-beyond-its-prime comic book franchise that should be buried (and maybe, maybe restarted fresh like the movie lines) a long, long, long time ago.

[Arbitrary]

Right, you don't read comics. We knew that already.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Castigator

I ignored it (or at least didn't reference it) because coming out of the movie, it was quite obvious the writers, director and actors of a movie called the TDK had ignored it (for now) in order to make a pretty damn decent movie out of a convoluted, mopped up and well-past-beyond-its-prime comic book franchise that should be buried (and maybe, maybe restarted fresh like the movie lines) a long, long, long time ago.

The writers and directors of TDK haven't ignored the fact that Bruce Wayne is the real disguise. They are just showing you the very early hows and whys such a thing occurs.

If you don't like that part of the mythos, fine. State your reasons and be on your way. But don't try and come off like Nolan is pulling some kind of weird change of direction with the Batman lexicon.

The comic books of Bob Kane have been left behind years ago for a much darker, grittier version of Batman. The early Tim Burton movies started down that path, but that line of movies got hi-jacked by movie executives that wanted to link over-the-top big-name stars and flashy sound stages to the movies. Thinking they could reach this level of success by making the Batman setting dumbed down and more kid-friendly. I, for one, am happy they failed in that attempt (at making the huge money numbers, not at making a profitable movie). The fact that the darker these movies get, the more money gets made is an indication of exactly why Nolan et. al. will go even farther down the dark side of the Batman mythos. In that line of story-telling, Batman becomes more and more recluse and even begins to hate the persona of Bruce Wayne.

Now, will Nolan go so far as to make The Dark Knight: Terminator 10? I seriously doubt it. By the time the comic/graphic novel story of Batman got to that point, many of the Batman fans had already checked out. But Lyrical is right in one area. Bruce Wayne is going to fall farther and farther into the role of Batman and begin to resent more and more the fact he is forced to keep parading around as Bruce Wayne.

[Rathgar]

The entire point is that it's not something Fox is easily willing to do. The film isn't trying to tell you that's it ok or not ok. Fox did it because he was put on the fucking spot and had to choose: Here, save people by crossing your own moral code, or let them die by adhering to it. It's the same dilemma that Batman constantly faces. Fox chose to cross his own line, but clearly never wants to again. Fuck.

[Tuco]

Or perhaps they wanted to convey that wire-tapping is okay because it saves lives if used by the right people?

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Sunder

The writers and directors of TDK haven't ignored the fact that Bruce Wayne is the real disguise. They are just showing you the very early hows and whys such a thing occurs.

If you don't like that part of the mythos, fine. State your reasons and be on your way. But don't try and come off like Nolan is pulling some kind of weird change of direction with the Batman lexicon.

Agreed. Anyone that thinks that TDK: The Movie is a departure from the last 30 years of comics just doesn't know what they are talking about. This story is just being retold. And Castigator can't blame the source material in his condescending ways, because Batman Year One and Year Two, Miller's graphic novel TDK: Returns and the early issues from Legends of the Dark Knight are some of the best comics ever written.

Nolan isn't re-doing the lore, he's sticking fairly close to the lore. I'd almost say that he's coasting off of the great storytelling in those issues, but that would be too strong. He does reap the benefits of retelling some of the best comics ever made. He's sticking fairly close to the same plots told on paper.

[Lyrical]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Or perhaps they wanted to convey that wire-tapping is okay because it saves lives if used by the right people?

Agreed. And another thing in the Batman mythos is that he doesn't really care about the law. He won't kill, but will break an arm to get info. He will invade people's privacy, and he will engage in breaking and entering if it means stopping crime.

Fox did what many people would do. To save hundreds of people, we'd give up the notion of privacy at least once. In converse, I doubt many of us would feel too good about letting hundreds of people die if we could filter out all of the bad info and just focus on the Joker. But Batman engages in this type of stuff all the time.

[Twobit Whore]

Holy hooligans! Phony 'Joker' arrested in Michigan - MSN Movies News

[Gaereth]

I think the Fox scene is dead on. An imminent, immediate, threat to hundreds or thousands of people by a madman who is already blowing up and killing people. He can see it being used to catch the Joker at that point in time. If it continues to exist then he is done.

If a mad bomber placed a bomb into an elementary school with the conditions that if anyone leaves or police start checking the schools to try to figure out which one its in he blows it....if you had him in custody what would you do?

Would you ask him nicely and if he didn't answer...Oh well??

I would personally rather have the guilt from cutting the bombers fingers off knuckle by knuckle rather than the death of 1000 children.

[Rathgar]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

I think the Fox scene is dead on. An imminent, immediate, threat to hundreds or thousands of people by a madman who is already blowing up and killing people. He can see it being used to catch the Joker at that point in time. If it continues to exist then he is done.

If a mad bomber placed a bomb into an elementary school with the conditions that if anyone leaves or police start checking the schools to try to figure out which one its in he blows it....if you had him in custody what would you do?

Would you ask him nicely and if he didn't answer...Oh well??

I would personally rather have the guilt from cutting the bombers fingers off knuckle by knuckle rather than the death of 1000 children.

First, I think everyone understands the concept of a lesser evil. That's not what's being discussed.

Second, that scenario makes no sense. If said bomber has the ability to trigger the bombs if anyone leaves or any law enforcement arrive on-scene, what the fuck is going to stop him from triggering the bombs when you try to take a blade to his fingers?

Jabberwhacky would have a problem (in your strange scenario) if someone had said they would cut fingers off just this once and then never again no matter what.

[Surlok TP]

Originally Posted by Rathgar

First, I think everyone understands the concept of a lesser evil. That's not what's being discussed.

Second, that scenario makes no sense. If said bomber has the ability to trigger the bombs if anyone leaves or any law enforcement arrive on-scene, what the fuck is going to stop him from triggering the bombs when you try to take a blade to his fingers?

Jabberwhacky would have a problem (in your strange scenario) if someone had said they would cut fingers off just this once and then never again no matter what.

You don't have to worry about the bomb in the school, cause it's not real. It's just a ploy to get all the police out of wall street so they can steal the gold from the hold.

You don't need Batman to handle shit like that, John McClane is fucking on it.

[FulorianC]

They're after the Jew gold! Quick, call Eric Cartman!

[Kaige]

Batman has been dark for a while, he's one of the few actual heroes out that there's consistently dealt with the realistic crime of the world. Gangs, murderers, drugs, etc. Yeah he deals with supervillains now and then, but how many drug pushers do you think Superman and Wonder Woman deal with on a daily basis? Probably little to none.

[xxmalisxx]

Originally Posted by Jabberwhacky

I'm not missing anything. The guy should have resigned BEFORE doing it, not after. Fox's whole point is that it's so terrible it should not be done....o except this one time tee hee. That's the slippery slope that is always brought up in regards to wiretapping/torture/etc, you do it once and you're fucked. What is stopping Fox from doing it again? Is it the fact that the first time he went against his moral code he captured a madman? Seems like a good reason to do the same thing again...

And jesus christ, you guys with your "direness of the situation." THAT IS COMPLETELY PARALLEL TO BUSH'S REASONING. Batman and Lucius Fox used Bush's defense and DEFENDED IT. They got GOOD RESULTS. They SAVED THE DAY.

Once the dvd comes out and they show Fox using this device to spy on girls taking showers and abusing the device, I'll agree with you. Fact is, he used the machine, directed Batman to the joker and saving the hostages, and blew the machine up. Fuck it, let him do it as many times as he wants, he didn't abuse it.

Also, this is a Batman flick, not a Michael Moore film. Let it be.