The State of Comic Books. - Page 2

chaos · 02-23-2007, 10:23 AM

Yeah I also loved Vertigo and specifically Hellblazer and Shade, The Changing Man. Shade was just so... fucking weird. But it made a certain sense, kind of, in the end. Hellblazer was classic. Sandman also good but I find Gaiman is a kind of love or hate type of writer. I started reading The Boys after reading a post on these forums about it, it is an excellent book and I am so glad that they are getting things worked out so publication can continue.

The reason I could never get into mainstream comics is because they are just plain badly written. For instance X-men, they have this amazing, awesome storyline full of badassness (the coming human/mutant war, Sentinels, all that shit) and they dick around with bullshit shock or side stories for literally HUNDREDS of issues. When they aren't completing avoiding the part of the story that makes it just ungodly cool, they are hopelessly convoluting it, introducing so many alternate timelines that even the writers can't keep up, characters freely traveling in time, it's just so bad. They did the same thing with Spiderman. I want to see the continuation of the Carnage storyline but first I have to wade through 50 issues of Spiderman fighting legendary enemies like The Scorpion. What the shit is that? Too many mainstream comics stand on their own, you take the issues and read them out of order and it makes no difference. The exception would be introduction of new characters, deaths, or storyline arcs. The whole damn comic series should be a story arc, that should not be the exception. The better written comics (imo) follow a clear storyline throughout the series, and while there are different arcs, they underlying story is there and is affected by these events. Nothing happens in a vaccuum, unlike many more mainstream comics. Probably a holdover from older days of comics, where there was no real story other than that issue, pick up issue 5 or 50 of Captain America and he's still holding strong, fighting Nazis. As long as the major publishers, ie Marvel and DC, refuse to treat it as an art form, it will not be an art form. At least it won't be what it could be. Imagine if you cleaned up X-Men the kind of awesome that comic could be. But instead, try and name the current lineup of the X-Men

I'd say Stan Lee probably cries at night, but if he does, it's on a giant bed of money. So probably not. The only hope is for more and more independant studios to come into actual competition with the numbers that Marvel and DC are putting out, and do that by putting out a quality product, as much as I like Garth, not by shocking the fuck out of the audience. I don't know much about the modern state of the industry but back in the late 90s it was basically 90% Marvel dominated, I'm sure it hasn't changed so much.

Tabris · 02-23-2007, 11:12 AM

You know, I tried to read through the 'glory days' of the X-Men, starting with Giant Size X-Men #1 and going chronologically in publishing order from there (very easy with the Essential trades out), reading all the X-Men related titles as well. Now, I know if I managed to hit the mid-80's stories things would be good, but I just couldn't make it. The Dark Phoenix Saga wasn't even that great, and the next 20 issues after that (when Byrne left) were just so terrible that I literally had to stop reading entirely. I just couldn't do it.

I will recommend to everyone, if they have the patience to assemble the collection from eBay/comics stores, to read all of Jim Shooter's Valiant work, starting with Magnus Robot Fighter #1 and continuing up until Unity #1/Rai #0. It's just solid storytelling and a great story. I think Solar #0 might actually be one of the best comic books I've ever read, and Barry Windsor-Smith's artwork is amazing.

chaos · 02-23-2007, 11:27 AM

Solar was fucking amazing. Jim Shooter really had something, they were never really clear on what happened to get him fired but it was (clearly) a hgue mistake on their part. The comics went downhill after the Unity crisis when Acclaim acquired Valiant so quickly it was ridiculous.

Magnus, XO Manowar, Solar, Rai, Eternal Warrior/Archer and Armstrong, Harbinger (imo that comic is everything x-men should be and fails at), etc. I even liked Shadowman until about 10 issues in it got ridiculous. It was an amazing universe, everything was continuous, the characters interacted, there were actions and effects, it was like a real story, a living world. And Solar is the man.

Tabris · 02-23-2007, 12:19 PM

If you want to really read what happened with Shooter at Valiant and during his time as editor-in-chief at Marvel, CBR did basically the best Shooter interview ever a few years ago. Be warned, it is very long but utterly fascinating. Keep in mind this is a guy who started professionally writing comic books when he was 13 years old for DC to help support his family, who took over as editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics when he was like 28, etc.

Part 1: Comic Book Resources - CBR News: Jim Shooter Interview: Part 1

Part 2: Comic Book Resources - CBR News: Jim Shooter Interview: Part 2

Read the interviews whenever you have a few hours.

Tabris · 02-23-2007, 12:48 PM

BTW, new 'ending' for Civil War, more fitting I think:

ImageShack - Hosting :: civilwar7wanted1mh6.gif

ImageShack - Hosting :: civilwar7wanted2jd2.gif

Rune · 02-23-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabris

BTW, new 'ending' for Civil War, more fitting I think:

ImageShack - Hosting :: civilwar7wanted1mh6.gif

ImageShack - Hosting :: civilwar7wanted2jd2.gif

Every time I think I've bottomed out on cynicism I get to read something like that.

Thanks, Tabris.

Vorph · 02-24-2007, 11:02 PM

Anyone looking for a good sci-fi series would do well to check out The Surrogates. It's a five issue mini-series from '05/'06, but I just got around to reading it tonight. No superheroes here, more like William Gibson or Philip K. Dick. It's about a not-too-distant future where humans have surrogate machines that they use in place of their own bodies. Sort of like taking the idea of internet identities one rather large step forward and into the real world.

There's a mystery involving some 'killings,' a bit of noirish intrigue (but sadly not enough of that--I wish they'd gotten a little more inspiration from Richard K. Morgan), and enough action to keep the talky bits interesting. It'd make a great movie imo, and given the amount of positive reviews the series got I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.

At any rate, I highly recommend it. I've been reading an asston of comics lately and this is one of the very few that stood out from the rest.

Tabris · 02-28-2007, 11:38 AM

FYI apparently Millar thinks videos games are for pedophiles:

Quote:

Like all my pals, the TV and movie people have come calling and even the computer game people (which is weird because games are for pedos and I have no interest).

Marvel Comic Writer: Games Are For Pedophiles - Kotaku

I love Millar.

Also funny is how the comments thread devolves into a discussion about whether being a comic book writer helps you pull box. Some of these people do need to see the women that Gaiman and Morrison have apparently landed at conventions.

Vorph · 02-28-2007, 03:10 PM

Bad joke aside, I've never understood the praise for Millar's work. His run on The Authority wasn't bad, but he's no Warren Ellis, not even close. Wanted was cool in a really fucked up way, and probably my favorite of all the books he's written. Civil War and pretty much everything else? Yawn.

Frax · 03-01-2007, 11:04 PM

Almost all comics now suck

Unless they are Groo or by Frank Milller or Alan Moore!

no bias at all!

manslayer · 03-04-2007, 12:04 AM

I stopped reading comics a number of years ago when it became more about chrome covers that cost 4 times the normal price with 5 different versions and flashy art instead of actual substance. Same crap happened to sports cards.

Dom Devore · 03-04-2007, 12:32 AM

Civil War was so damned bad that it reminded me of the early-mid 90's gold foil/7 "collectors covers" OMG A FREE CARD!!! bullshit that was a large reason that almost caused Marvel to close their doors.

A full fucking 7 issues and they can't even cover 30% of the story, they slap it all into random books so you have to spend spend spend!

And people wonder why DCP releases are so popular...

Vorph · 03-04-2007, 12:00 PM

30%? Heh, it's going to be less than 7% what it's all said and done.

And all that foil/collector's/variant cover shit is why trade paperback releases have been steadily overtaking individual issue sales for years now. Only books I've bought single issues of in the last 5 years or so are The Boys and John Woo's 7 Brothers, mainly because DCP was slackass about scanning them within a month of the street date and I can't wait that long for my Ennis fix.

Oh yea, and Warren Ellis' Fell because the whole concept of what he's trying to do there is damned cool.

Tabris · 03-07-2007, 09:49 AM

Heh, they killed off Captain America.

Goddamn Marvel is awful. I wonder what Jim Shooter thinks of all of this? Should dig out his old e-mail address and ask him.

chaos · 03-07-2007, 11:05 AM

i can't believe they killed Captain America... god I really hate Marvel.

02-23-2007, 12:19 PM	#19 (permalink)
Tabris Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,612 -21 Internets	If you want to really read what happened with Shooter at Valiant and during his time as editor-in-chief at Marvel, CBR did basically the best Shooter interview ever a few years ago. Be warned, it is very long but utterly fascinating. Keep in mind this is a guy who started professionally writing comic books when he was 13 years old for DC to help support his family, who took over as editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics when he was like 28, etc. Part 1: Comic Book Resources - CBR News: Jim Shooter Interview: Part 1 Part 2: Comic Book Resources - CBR News: Jim Shooter Interview: Part 2 Read the interviews whenever you have a few hours. Last edited by Tabris; 02-23-2007 at 12:22 PM..

02-24-2007, 11:02 PM	#22 (permalink)
Vorph Fuck Art, Let's Kill Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 7,242	Anyone looking for a good sci-fi series would do well to check out The Surrogates. It's a five issue mini-series from '05/'06, but I just got around to reading it tonight. No superheroes here, more like William Gibson or Philip K. Dick. It's about a not-too-distant future where humans have surrogate machines that they use in place of their own bodies. Sort of like taking the idea of internet identities one rather large step forward and into the real world. There's a mystery involving some 'killings,' a bit of noirish intrigue (but sadly not enough of that--I wish they'd gotten a little more inspiration from Richard K. Morgan), and enough action to keep the talky bits interesting. It'd make a great movie imo, and given the amount of positive reviews the series got I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. At any rate, I highly recommend it. I've been reading an asston of comics lately and this is one of the very few that stood out from the rest. __________________ ...the whole world's going to blow up anyway. I might as well keep my pride. eRepublik Referral (PM me for assistance if you start up using my link)

02-28-2007, 03:10 PM	#24 (permalink)
Vorph Fuck Art, Let's Kill Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 7,242	Bad joke aside, I've never understood the praise for Millar's work. His run on The Authority wasn't bad, but he's no Warren Ellis, not even close. Wanted was cool in a really fucked up way, and probably my favorite of all the books he's written. Civil War and pretty much everything else? Yawn. __________________ ...the whole world's going to blow up anyway. I might as well keep my pride. eRepublik Referral (PM me for assistance if you start up using my link)

03-01-2007, 11:04 PM	#25 (permalink)
Frax Raider Nation In Exlie Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: To the left or right of you Posts: 3,797	Almost all comics now suck Unless they are Groo or by Frank Milller or Alan Moore! no bias at all! __________________ Government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. -Gerald Ford

03-04-2007, 12:32 AM	#27 (permalink)
Dom Devore Happy Trees! Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Midkemia Posts: 616	Civil War was so damned bad that it reminded me of the early-mid 90's gold foil/7 "collectors covers" OMG A FREE CARD!!! bullshit that was a large reason that almost caused Marvel to close their doors. A full fucking 7 issues and they can't even cover 30% of the story, they slap it all into random books so you have to spend spend spend! And people wonder why DCP releases are so popular... __________________ Don't these talking Monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?

02-23-2007, 10:23 AM	#16 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	Yeah I also loved Vertigo and specifically Hellblazer and Shade, The Changing Man. Shade was just so... fucking weird. But it made a certain sense, kind of, in the end. Hellblazer was classic. Sandman also good but I find Gaiman is a kind of love or hate type of writer. I started reading The Boys after reading a post on these forums about it, it is an excellent book and I am so glad that they are getting things worked out so publication can continue. The reason I could never get into mainstream comics is because they are just plain badly written. For instance X-men, they have this amazing, awesome storyline full of badassness (the coming human/mutant war, Sentinels, all that shit) and they dick around with bullshit shock or side stories for literally HUNDREDS of issues. When they aren't completing avoiding the part of the story that makes it just ungodly cool, they are hopelessly convoluting it, introducing so many alternate timelines that even the writers can't keep up, characters freely traveling in time, it's just so bad. They did the same thing with Spiderman. I want to see the continuation of the Carnage storyline but first I have to wade through 50 issues of Spiderman fighting legendary enemies like The Scorpion. What the shit is that? Too many mainstream comics stand on their own, you take the issues and read them out of order and it makes no difference. The exception would be introduction of new characters, deaths, or storyline arcs. The whole damn comic series should be a story arc, that should not be the exception. The better written comics (imo) follow a clear storyline throughout the series, and while there are different arcs, they underlying story is there and is affected by these events. Nothing happens in a vaccuum, unlike many more mainstream comics. Probably a holdover from older days of comics, where there was no real story other than that issue, pick up issue 5 or 50 of Captain America and he's still holding strong, fighting Nazis. As long as the major publishers, ie Marvel and DC, refuse to treat it as an art form, it will not be an art form. At least it won't be what it could be. Imagine if you cleaned up X-Men the kind of awesome that comic could be. But instead, try and name the current lineup of the X-Men I'd say Stan Lee probably cries at night, but if he does, it's on a giant bed of money. So probably not. The only hope is for more and more independant studios to come into actual competition with the numbers that Marvel and DC are putting out, and do that by putting out a quality product, as much as I like Garth, not by shocking the fuck out of the audience. I don't know much about the modern state of the industry but back in the late 90s it was basically 90% Marvel dominated, I'm sure it hasn't changed so much.

02-23-2007, 11:12 AM	#17 (permalink)
Tabris Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,612 -21 Internets	You know, I tried to read through the 'glory days' of the X-Men, starting with Giant Size X-Men #1 and going chronologically in publishing order from there (very easy with the Essential trades out), reading all the X-Men related titles as well. Now, I know if I managed to hit the mid-80's stories things would be good, but I just couldn't make it. The Dark Phoenix Saga wasn't even that great, and the next 20 issues after that (when Byrne left) were just so terrible that I literally had to stop reading entirely. I just couldn't do it. I will recommend to everyone, if they have the patience to assemble the collection from eBay/comics stores, to read all of Jim Shooter's Valiant work, starting with Magnus Robot Fighter #1 and continuing up until Unity #1/Rai #0. It's just solid storytelling and a great story. I think Solar #0 might actually be one of the best comic books I've ever read, and Barry Windsor-Smith's artwork is amazing.

02-23-2007, 11:27 AM	#18 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	Solar was fucking amazing. Jim Shooter really had something, they were never really clear on what happened to get him fired but it was (clearly) a hgue mistake on their part. The comics went downhill after the Unity crisis when Acclaim acquired Valiant so quickly it was ridiculous. Magnus, XO Manowar, Solar, Rai, Eternal Warrior/Archer and Armstrong, Harbinger (imo that comic is everything x-men should be and fails at), etc. I even liked Shadowman until about 10 issues in it got ridiculous. It was an amazing universe, everything was continuous, the characters interacted, there were actions and effects, it was like a real story, a living world. And Solar is the man.

02-23-2007, 12:48 PM	#20 (permalink)
Tabris Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,612 -21 Internets	BTW, new 'ending' for Civil War, more fitting I think: ImageShack - Hosting :: civilwar7wanted1mh6.gif ImageShack - Hosting :: civilwar7wanted2jd2.gif

03-04-2007, 12:04 AM	#26 (permalink)
manslayer El Presidente Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Deep Dark Cold Posts: 532 -3 Internets	I stopped reading comics a number of years ago when it became more about chrome covers that cost 4 times the normal price with 5 different versions and flashy art instead of actual substance. Same crap happened to sports cards.

03-04-2007, 12:00 PM	#28 (permalink)
Vorph Fuck Art, Let's Kill Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hell Posts: 7,242	30%? Heh, it's going to be less than 7% what it's all said and done. And all that foil/collector's/variant cover shit is why trade paperback releases have been steadily overtaking individual issue sales for years now. Only books I've bought single issues of in the last 5 years or so are The Boys and John Woo's 7 Brothers, mainly because DCP was slackass about scanning them within a month of the street date and I can't wait that long for my Ennis fix. Oh yea, and Warren Ellis' Fell because the whole concept of what he's trying to do there is damned cool. __________________ ...the whole world's going to blow up anyway. I might as well keep my pride. eRepublik Referral (PM me for assistance if you start up using my link)

03-07-2007, 09:49 AM	#29 (permalink)
Tabris Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,612 -21 Internets	Heh, they killed off Captain America. Goddamn Marvel is awful. I wonder what Jim Shooter thinks of all of this? Should dig out his old e-mail address and ask him.

03-07-2007, 11:05 AM	#30 (permalink)
chaos Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: NoVa Posts: 7,162 +29 Internets	i can't believe they killed Captain America... god I really hate Marvel.

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