Warhammer 40,000 Novels

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by CyrusReij

Horus Heresy semi-ftw, it is in kind of a lull atm but it will pick up again as the fighting begins to move to Terra, and the opening 5 were pretty good (with differing levels of opinion). Personal favorite is Fulgrim, mostly cause it is a sad fucking story to see what happened to the Emperor's Children.

Total lack of psykers and knowledge of the warp amongst the marines/primarchs kinda ruined the horus heresy books for me. It makes no sense at all. But i haven't read fulgrim or the next book yet (fallen angels?).

[...]

There are psykers in Descent of Angels.

At first I was bothered by the lack of pskers/knowledge about the warp in the horus heresy...but I got to thinking about it.

Dunno if it's a spoiler,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

But I think the idea is that the emperor knows that superstition, fear, spirituality feeds the warp, so he's made an effort to eliminate it.

what's bothered me is the lack of spirituality amongst the mechanicum. in the lore it's said that the reason they use humanoid shaped titans was that they were religious nuts when the emperor found them. they used the titans to fight because the atmosphere of mars was so shitty they couldn't squabble with infantry. maybe they're just good liars?

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by ...

There are psykers in Descent of Angels.

At first I was bothered by the lack of pskers/knowledge about the warp in the horus heresy...but I got to thinking about it.

Dunno if it's a spoiler,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

But I think the idea is that the emperor knows that superstition, fear, spirituality feeds the warp, so he's made an effort to eliminate it.

what's bothered me is the lack of spirituality amongst the mechanicum. in the lore it's said that the reason they use humanoid shaped titans was that they were religious nuts when the emperor found them. they used the titans to fight because the atmosphere of mars was so shitty they couldn't squabble with infantry. maybe they're just good liars?

Ya the mechanica was already established when the emperor went to mars and had to like "convert" them to imperial belief. They supposedly had a weird religion worshiping their machine god or whatever the fuck. And the wanting to depower the warp by destroying belief in it is most certainly what the emperor is trying to do. But to keep the primarchs 100% unaware of what it is so they basically have no defense for it is just retardation. As is the lore rape of no psykers what so ever allowed in the legions. Only sorcery was banned being a psyker was allowed there were librarians in the legions. I think they banned psykers in these books because the plot just doesnt work with psykers around.

They just really twisted the lore to make their version of the corruption of the legions work.

1.Make everyone 100% ignorant of the warp so they are totally unaware of the corruption it represents.

2.Remove all psykers because there is no fucking way librarians would be unaware of the corruption and warp.

[Bizanich]

Read the Ultramarines Omnibus and Eisenhorn trilogy over the last week or so.

In both, the third books seemed to be like "THIS IS WHERE WE DIVERGE FROM WHAT YOU KNOW".

Wish there was more for Eisenhorn, though

[Gryeyes]

Ravenor gets 3 books as well. Similar to eisenhorn except the entire man in a chair deal.

[Nick]

last chancers omnibus fucking dominated

[gavinrad]

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Ya the mechanica was already established when the emperor went to mars and had to like "convert" them to imperial belief. They supposedly had a weird religion worshiping their machine god or whatever the fuck. And the wanting to depower the warp by destroying belief in it is most certainly what the emperor is trying to do. But to keep the primarchs 100% unaware of what it is so they basically have no defense for it is just retardation. As is the lore rape of no psykers what so ever allowed in the legions. Only sorcery was banned being a psyker was allowed there were librarians in the legions. I think they banned psykers in these books because the plot just doesnt work with psykers around.

They just really twisted the lore to make their version of the corruption of the legions work.

1.Make everyone 100% ignorant of the warp so they are totally unaware of the corruption it represents.

2.Remove all psykers because there is no fucking way librarians would be unaware of the corruption and warp.

From WD 267

'The Tension had reached a palpable knife edge of violence when a contigent of Space Marine librarians approached the dias. The Emperor aknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent...a young Epistolary stepped forward to deliver their words...A Psyker, he proposed, like an athlete was a gifted individual who's native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themelves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forever more as an unforgivable heresy against mankind.'


The council of Nikea only banned sorcery, which the thousand sons were practicing. The librarian core was disbanded because Magnus was the one training the majority of the librarians. The psykers were not executed, they simply returned to being line soldiers/officers. Most of the legions involved in the series so far were notoriously intolerant or indifferent about psykers anyway. With the exception of the thousand sons, the legions never had many psykers in the first place, and some legions were notoriously intolerant of them.

It also seems likely to me that it's entirely possible that psychically active marines would be relatively ignorant of the warp, the warp storms of the age of strife had had been rampaging for thousands of years, and perhaps the ruinous powers were laying low until they found the agent through which they could again bring destruction to the physical world. Also consider how easily the possession of Jubal in Horus Rising is covered up, and before the triumph at Ullanor there were not even any remembrancers with the fleets.

Many times it was shown that the Emperor was not omniscient, with him completely missing the ball with Lorgar and then Magnus. I have no trouble believing that he mistakenly thought that ignorance was the best defence against Chaos, relying on the warlike nature of the Astartes to keep themselves blissfully ignorant.


Hell, the idea that it was Guilliman who reinstated the Librarius gives reason to why Vulkan and Dorn would have opposed the Codex Astartes at all. At that point noone can contest Guilliman's primacy, but Dorn was notoriously opposed to psykers and that would explain why he initially refused to break down his legion. Although if his battle in the Iron Cage with Perturabo is still canon, it may have simply been his perceived need to regain his legion's honor and had nothing to do with the return of the Librarius. Vulkan however, was the master of a legion massacred at Istvaan. I can think of no reason why he would oppose the Codex unless it contained something he specifically took issue with.

[Gryeyes]

First the library core wasnt disbanded unless that was retconned same with magnus teaching them all so the plot in the books made sense. And the entire "training" that a psyker receives is about the nature of the warp and how to avoid becoming tainted or possessed. It also says in horus novels that psykers were banned across the board including sorcery. All psyker powers are derived from the warp.

So we have an emperor with vast psyker powers who is aware that the warp gods want to corrupt and destroy him and his forces. Yet doesnt even brief his top leaders on what it is and how to resist it? Besides the fact magnus sure as shit knows about the warp and if he was supposed to have trained the librarians naturally so would they. Ignorance of the threat of the warp is how beings get corrupted and possessed. Its why all pskyers are controlled and trained or killed. All psykers are rare so by default so are marine psykers. But ANYONE with psyker powers is open to possession and the warp. Its one of the few ways daemons can even enter the material world.

[gavinrad]

Or perhaps the vastly powerful Emperor is also ignorant of the full scope of the ruinous powers?

As I said, they are intelligent, near omnipotent beings, so maybe they concealed themselves until they chose to be known of? I admit that the original Conclave of Nikea is not the same as what they talk about in the heresy series, but I have never read anything that says anyone, the emperor included, knew intimate details about Chaos before Lorgar.

[Gryeyes]

Originally Posted by gavinrad

Or perhaps the vastly powerful Emperor is also ignorant of the full scope of the ruinous powers?

As I said, they are intelligent, near omnipotent beings, so maybe they concealed themselves until they chose to be known of? I admit that the original Conclave of Nikea is not the same as what they talk about in the heresy series, but I have never read anything that says anyone, the emperor included, knew intimate details about Chaos before Lorgar.

Uhhh thats the entire reason the "emperor" exists. was to confront and prepare humanity for the warp gods.blah blah long time ago all psyker/shamans on earth could tell the warp was becoming something corrupt. So they all incarnate into the emperor to give humanity a chance. Magnus knows about the warp just from dicking around with it. The emperor who has lived for 10's of thousands of years and is a mega power. To say he could even possibly be unaware of the warp is just silly. Warp travel is only possible with navigators who can SEE the warp. Ships require special shielding to keep daemons away from ships who enter the warp. Psykers who if not prepared will be possessed by beings from the warp.

So we have specialized technology based on the warp. people who can "see" the warp. And an entire chapter of people who study sorcery. Besides the fact librarians exist and all psykers must be aware of the warp to avoid and resist its temptations. And its not knowledge of the warp gods specifically but the nature of the warp that one gets trained.

[dirtydorf]

I read a few of the 40k books about five or six years or so ago, and this thread got me thinking about them. There was one book I wouldn't mind reading again, but I can't remember it's name. In it, a group of Space Marines (I think) locked themselves in their fortress, sacrificing themselves, to prevent a plague getting out. Does anyone remember which book that was?

And no, it's not The Abyss.

[Gryeyes]

I have no idea but two of the best wh books are the inquisition war trilogy and space marine. Both by ian watson. Has alot of the WH40k feel that many of the newer ones donot.

[...]

Originally Posted by dirtydorf

I read a few of the 40k books about five or six years or so ago, and this thread got me thinking about them. There was one book I wouldn't mind reading again, but I can't remember it's name. In it, a group of Space Marines (I think) locked themselves in their fortress, sacrificing themselves, to prevent a plague getting out. Does anyone remember which book that was?

And no, it's not The Abyss.

That's Angels of Darkness. the one with all the secrecy pissing off the main character over time.

[gavinrad]

Originally Posted by Gryeyes

Uhhh thats the entire reason the "emperor" exists. was to confront and prepare humanity for the warp gods.blah blah long time ago all psyker/shamans on earth could tell the warp was becoming something corrupt. So they all incarnate into the emperor to give humanity a chance. Magnus knows about the warp just from dicking around with it. The emperor who has lived for 10's of thousands of years and is a mega power. To say he could even possibly be unaware of the warp is just silly. Warp travel is only possible with navigators who can SEE the warp. Ships require special shielding to keep daemons away from ships who enter the warp. Psykers who if not prepared will be possessed by beings from the warp.

So we have specialized technology based on the warp. people who can "see" the warp. And an entire chapter of people who study sorcery. Besides the fact librarians exist and all psykers must be aware of the warp to avoid and resist its temptations. And its not knowledge of the warp gods specifically but the nature of the warp that one gets trained.

Yeah, except you are just making assumptions. The Geller Field was originally put in use to protect ships from the energy of the warp, the fact that it keeps warp entities out too was coincidence. Nowhere that I have read does it indicate that the Emperor lived for any substantial amount of time before the end of the Age of Strife. Nowhere does it indicate that Magnus knew anything substantial about the beings that lived within the warp. As I've already stated, the possession of Jubal was very neatly covered up, so why would any other possession be any more public?

The essential defining characteristic of the Imperium of Man as written in the last thirty years of fluff is IGNORANCE. Why then should it be so hard to believe that ignorance is what led to the Heresy in the first place?

[Tabris]

Gavinrad, Gryeyes is referring to some very old fluff that was originally published in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, which stated that the Emperor was a reincarnation of thousands of ancient shamans who sacrificed themselves to be reborn in a "perfect man" that could guide humanity's destiny in the future. The book was published over 20 years ago and many of the topics discussed in it have been de-canonized over the years.