Malazan

[Zindan]

Now that I think about RG some more, there are more questions, comments:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

1- The Lizard guys, or KC's...they are offspring of Dragonkind?

2- It seems like some clan of Imass lived on the Awl'Dan Plains, at least in the area where magic doesn't work, due to the Ritual sucking dry. Wondering what the Barghast, with Tool are going to be doing there. Along with the Perish and the Bonehunters...maybe some war against the KC (though for some reason I think the KC are natural enemies to the Crippled God).

3- The Icarium arc hasn't fizzled at all in my opinion, if anything its taken a turn for the better with him now regaining much of his lost memory. Unless stepping into his broken machine just throws him out on some corner of the world with his memory wiped.

4- Was really sad that both Onrack and Tool lost their best friends after becoming flesh and blood again.

[Koivu]

Been a while since I read the first few books, so I might not be exact in my information.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

1. The beginnings of K'chain Che'malle have not yet been revealed, though MoI touches it slightly, telling us that they are an ancient race, older than the Jaghut, and that their relationship with the Jaghuts was much like that of Jaghut/Imass, K'chain being like (oppressive?) gods unto the Jaghut. Other thing of note of their origins is that the short-tails are mentioned as being an older, extinct line of K'chain. Their revival brought on the ruin of the K'chain civilization.

2. I first assumed that Tool would be there to answer the call of the T'lan Imass, but that plea of help was directed to Silverfox, and the armies of T'lan Imass. Also remember that particular story arc would be Esslemont's to develop, as it would happen on "his" contintent? In all honesty, the presence of Tool and his cohorts aside from the emotional reunion & death scene with Toc the Younger is a bit of a puzzler to me as well.

3. I felt a bit cheated with the whole Icarium/Rhulad/Karsa triangle. I was expecting a showdown of truly epic proportions, that is after all what Erikson has been building up ever since he introduced Karsa and Icarium to each other. Yet I cannot fault Erikson for doing this, after all Icarium would feel no need to fight against Karsa especially if there was a chance to reclaim his memory. And Karsa obviously was more interested in kicking Crippled God where it hurt. Regards to this, anyone else got the feeling of "wtf?" when reading the fight scene between Rhulad and Karsa? For a back country barbarian warrior, Karsa suddenly got mighty smart about the ways of magic and warrens, cracking the mystery of the sword and it's relation to Rhulad's resurrections.

[Utne^_^]

Just finished Reaper's Gale, and I must say, like everyone else, that this is one of the best series I've ever read. Now, it is quite dense, even more so because english isn't my first language, but it doesn't matter. Reading this in my own language wouldn't be nearly as awesome, I reckon.

Regarding Karsa

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And what's with all the Karsa hate? Yes, he is powerful as fuck, but he's also the Knight in the High House of Chains, much like Anomander Rake is Knight in High House Dark, and Toblakai as well!

[Asmadai]

Almost done with Memories of Ice finally.

Question: When can I pick up Night of Knives? Should I wait until before/after The Bonehunters or can I just read it whenever?

Also, is the other 3 book series about Emancipoor/Bauchelain/Thatotherguy any good? If so, when should I read these?

[Kreugen]

Still chuckilng at the exchange between Kalam/Quick in Bonehunters while the sky was falling.

"So, we were all about to die. Where were you Quick?"

"On Hood's Gate..."

"Oh, I see, getting a head start to beat the rush?"

"Hilarious, Kalam"

[Seventh]

Quick question that requires some RG spoilers, but please keep in mind that I'm only about 200 pages in.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

How did Fear, Udinaas and Seren end up with Silchas Ruin? I read the last 200 pages or so of TBH half asleep (because I couldn't put it down) and want to make sure that I didn't miss something.

Also, regarding TBH spoilers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

What was the deal with the sky falling? It happened, HGH stopped it, but why?

Just want to clear a couple things up before I continue to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[Aamina]

I like the series but I have several significant problems with the series:

2000 pages in, and the author still refuses to make some key distinctions about

1) ascendant
OMG This guy has almost ascended!!!! But not quite!!!!
2) Ascendant
He's an Ascendant!!!!!!! But so are most of the other characters!!!!
3) Deck of Dragons
*snicker snicker* the man who made the deck is longdead but we will explain nothing else of value about it
4) Gods
5) Why Elder Peoples can access other Warrens but Humans can't,
6) What it takes to make a House, since people seem to be able to do it willy nilly
House of Chains, House of Shadow lewl the deck will resist us
7) Why certain people are for no apparent reason significantly better than everyone else, just because they can use an Elder Warren
OMG the Imass are so good...yeah but its clear that mortal bladesmen can be as good as the First Sword, so really its just good swordsmen who can turn into a pile of dust and move about the world and use a warren that is totally undescribed but "so powerful"
8) Why the author insists upon using apostrophes to name races
Enough with that already.
9) Spell battles consist of "[someone] was hit by a sorcerous onslaught. [That person] cries out in pain!"

I like the series. But 2000 pages in is a bit too long to be still hedging about random questions but at the same time giving us way too much information about geography and introducing yet more characters who we can wonder about.

I'm sure someone will respond with answers--or the ever-clever "the answers are in this thread" but again, I stand by the statement that 2000 pages is too long to be wondering about the core lore of the world.

[Korbal]

Originally Posted by Aamina

I'm sure someone will respond with answers--or the ever-clever "the answers are in this thread" but again, I stand by the statement that 2000 pages is too long to be wondering about the core lore of the world.

lol, maybe you should quit now then. He doesn't spoonfeed you every detail as if he did the series would be much too massive and complex.

Erikson just throws you into the world and expects you to land running. I think a lot of your questions aren't even answered by the end of Reaper's Gale, but who really cares? Why do you need to know these details? It's part of what makes the series so epic.

go back to WoT

[Aamina]

I don't need to be spoonfed. But if characters are constantly making reference to it, perhaps he should spend a bit less of the 600 pages telling us about a journey and a few more with some explanatory dialogue. Perhaps read another author who does this well to see how you can actually understand what the hell is going on without being OMG SO MASSIVE. I recommend David Gemmell for tight, succinct writing.

I need to know these details because when everyone is /quaking because a T'lan Imass shows up, apparently every character in the damn world of Malazan knows the details but the author doesn't care to share. And landing running? Hell yeah I landed running, Gardens of the Moon is like being dropped into the middle of an ocean of jell-o. But then by book 3 there's still a bunch of easily remedied lore/world composition questions that I must conclude he refuses to put in.

These are not obscure questions. The first rule of writing is "Be clear." Its the first rule of any communication. I admit he has a great love for anthropology and does quite well creating the world's succession of races, but in this ever-important area he flounders.

[Korbal]

Originally Posted by Aamina

I don't need to be spoonfed. But if characters are constantly making reference to it, perhaps he should spend a bit less of the 600 pages telling us about a journey and a few more with some explanatory dialogue. Perhaps read another author who does this well to see how you can actually understand what the hell is going on without being OMG SO MASSIVE. I recommend David Gemmell for tight, succinct writing.

It appears that you do need to be spoonfed. There wasn't a single time I didn't know what the hell was going on because something was left unexplained unless it was on purpose. Whenever an area needs to be explained for the story, he explains it. If it's just pointless words that adds nothing to the story, he leaves it out and just hints at it so you get the general idea.

Also, rofl with the David Gemmell recommendation as someone for Erikson to aspire to. I've seen you spout your fanboyism for this guy in every recommendation thread, and I actually picked up Legend because of a few recommendations here and it was terrible. The story was so bland and ho-hum and writing so simple/childish that I couldn't even finish it.

I need to know these details because when everyone is /quaking because a T'lan Imass shows up, apparently every character in the damn world of Malazan knows the details but the author doesn't care to share.

Badass undead swordsmen that can turn into dust. What more do you need to know to understand why they are feared? Why do you need to know the history of every race? If you keep reading you will understand more as it becomes necessary and the characters play more of a role in the story.

[Aamina]

Yeah, instead of being "ho-hum" we can be deliberately unclear. "Badass undead swordsman who turn into dust" doesn't make you badass, it just makes you a swordsman. When mortal swordsman, who have been alive 90,000 years less, can consider taking you on then you're not very badass and it flies in the face of every "badass" comment every character in the series has ever made.

And what if everyone judged Erikson by Gardens of the Moon? People who love him have admitted the book is off. Legend is D. Gemmell's first, and even though your review of it is snide and retarded, and I completely disagree, I don't think its fair to judge him by the book he first wrote in 1984 while working at a newspaper compared to what he did as a fulltime writer.

You've consistently brought up minutiae when the underlying point is that Erikson spends a significant amount of time being unclear. You claim that "if I keep reading" I will understand, but again, 2000 pages in means that certain things should already be addressed and if they are not, that is by definition unclear.

I bet you could also claim that the TV series Lost is also great television and only tells you things as you need to know it. There comes a point where not explaining something hurts the storyline, and doesn't "make you want to get the next book" but leaves you wondering "why in the hell didn't he just give the explanation within those 200 pages that the characters make reference to constantly."

For example, in Memories of Ice, Quick Ben unleashes all 7 Warrens at once at the Chained God. The description of it is that the god roars in pain. What an epic description of 7 Warrens going off at once. But what does that even mean to begin with? How does a warren even hurt anyone? Its made clear that each warren does a different thing, Denul Heals, Shadow is illusory...what is he unleashing from 7 warrens at once? Fire? Ice? Darts? Poor rebuttals? Energy? Its very unclear and by the third book I shouldn't be asking myself questions like "what does it even look like when someone gets hit with a spell...?" With magic so commonplace, perhaps a bit more of an explanation about what is going on when spells are flying around.

The examples abound, and if you think his writing is clear and concise I guess you also think that Lost for a few more seasons is going to be great. I've stuck it out for 3 books, and I'm willing to go one or two more since I have nothing else to read right now, but the point remains that his writing style can be easily described as "vague."

[Agraza]

I don't think the first rule of writing is be clear...at all. Perhaps be interesting, but it really depends on what you're trying to achieve. If he wanted to simply be clear he could make a map of the characters' relations to each other and a chronology of how shit went down in Malazan. Instead he is telling the tale in detail from multiple perspectives simultaneously, in line with the idea that these are myriad parts of the world's history.

The intent in a novel isn't to be clear. Where would suspense work if everything just made sense from page 1? How would the mystery genre even exist? You don't need to know the details. You want to know the details. It is sufficient to know that these mortals are afraid. Perhaps the legend is overblown. That's your decision to make, but the characters don't have our omnipresent view of the situation. I enjoy their ignorance as much as anything else.

Perhaps Malazan isn't your cup of tea, but your generalizations are weak. The back and forth is enthralling, and the holes in the story that are filled later are very rewarding carrot-on-stick type stuff. There are several eureka moments only because the story isn't told in a paint by numbers 1 2 3 manner, and those moments are often fun and awesome.

I vastly prefer this form of storytelling over following some whiny and/or unkillable douchebag around the world, and always taking in his myopic view of things. Mysteries are explained to him and thus to you since there are no other viewpoints. For example, Thomas Covenant, Stephen Donaldson's character is exactly that. The world in which those novels take place are pretty awesome and different, but the direction of the plot and the main character himself just annoy me. The saving grace then is the unique setting, which is still what places his novels apart for me.

The formula has gotten dull, and Erikson has found his own way out of it. Even if I am critical of particular points of delivery I'll take the bad with the good with the mediocre just for the different take on the genre. All around I think his method and execution are far above average.

[Seventh]

One of you bastards answer my RG questions before they get lost!

[Kreugen]

I'm not as far along as most, but I find it really cool when you get bits and pieces of understanding from various characters. Cotillion is a walking spoiler. So just to test my own knowledge, I ran through your list.

The humans that do use Elder (like the Cedas) are actually using Holds instead of a warren. The problem is have such poor control over it that they are likely to kill their own troops as the enemy. They pretty much conjure the power straight from a Hold, then give it a direction. Midnight Tides has tons of it. Basically, in other parts of the world they don't even know what a warren is, they still use Holds, which are Elder by default. Warrens = easier, more control, more limitations. How does one learn how to harness a warren? No fucking clue. God worship is one path, though, so I guess the reason human's don't get Elder warrens is they have forgotten the Elder Gods. The only other mortals using Elder get horribly deformed every time they use it. Pretty sweet.

T'lann Imass aren't the best individual fighters by any means. You already stated why they are feared - they can move unseen, they never die, and there's a lot of them. I'd say that's a rather large advantage over Joe Footsoldier. To give you an idea, A Forkul Assail kills tens of thousands of Imass by itself. The vast majority of Imass are off fighting an unending stalemate on another continent that hasn't even been dealt with in the story (Assail) Only one clan fought for Malazan.

The deal with their warren is kind of confusing. They are part of the deck and aligned to their own hold (Tellan), but they abandoned it to use the warren of fire (the whole ritual to become undead thing) This means their throne was conveniently empty for Kelanved to come along and scoop up. Tellan's control over them is weak now, though. And that's the limit to what I understand there, and I'm up to Bonehunters.

Gods - there's different kinds, but all are beings with worshipers. Sometimes, worshiping a primal force (like a storm or something) actually causes it to become a sentient being. If the worship dies off, the God returns to being a mindless primal force. (or part of Mael's underwater Zoo?) They aren't necessarily any more powerful than a rank and file ascendant.

Deck of the Dragons - wasn't this already explained by now? Its how Order (Lady Dark) keeps everyone in check. Its pretty much a giant metaphor made physical. Aligning to the deck both grants and limits power. It binds ascendants to certain rules. Its either really cool or kinda cheesy, I haven't decided yet.

Ascendants - aligned are beings chosen to fulfill a certain role defined by the deck. Unaligned are just anyone that has been gifted with power in some way. Stormy and co, for example, absorbed some power from their trip through the warren of power.

The apostrophe thing - most of the current names are bastardizations of the ancient names of various races.

Magic is often Tolkeineque, more of a force of will than fireballs and lasers. But there's plenty of that, too, especially in Midnight Tides. (Chaos magic = holy shitballs) When he talks about unveiling a warren, its basically like opening up the floodgates and letting raw power pour out. There's no shaping of a spell involved. You just point, aim, and let the shit flow out. So yeah, the scene where Ben blasts the Crippled God probably looked something like the Care Bears shooting rainbows from their chest.

[Korbal]

Originally Posted by Aamina

And what if everyone judged Erikson by Gardens of the Moon? People who love him have admitted the book is off. Legend is D. Gemmell's first, and even though your review of it is snide and retarded, and I completely disagree, I don't think its fair to judge him by the book he first wrote in 1984 while working at a newspaper compared to what he did as a fulltime writer.

If you finished Gardens of the Moon and thought it was anything other than badass, I don't know what to say other than..

go back to WoT

Erikson is a nice change to the stale and predictable shit that passes as fantasy nowadays.