A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Since I was vetoed in the other thread, here we go. Do not read this thread if you are not completely caught up with George Martin's realistic epic series. That means at the moment of this post "A Feast for Crows" now in paperback. If Martin has published it (this includes sample chapters on his own website) it will be discussed in this thread.

It also means that the minute "A Dance with Dragons" is released, do not come to this thread unless you want spoilers.
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So, Jon is totally a child of Ice and Fire.

[Yukiri]

Spoilery talk!!




Quoted from the other thread in black text:

I'm one of those who doesn't believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It might end up being true in the end, but I just don't think it's true yet. Faltigoth does bring up a good point about them guarding the Tower of Joy so much, but it all comes down to whether or not Aerys put up with the 'abduction'. Remember, Rhaegar left Elia (his wife) and disappeared with Lyanna. Whether or not the Kingsguard would stand for this and guard Rhaegar regardless of him having run off with another woman and leaving his wife and children back at Kings Landing is beyond us at this point. It hasn't been said yet specifically how Lyanna died has it? I mean we know he found her in a bed of blood, clutching a wreath of flowers or something, and she told Ned the secret that haunted him for so long - I'm guessing we are to assume she died from childbirth?

Check out this entry in the FAQ over at the Tower of the Hand website: http://www.towerofthehand.com/articles/a/0011/

Very good arguements, points and excerpts on the topic and various possible answers as to who his parents really are. Ill be honest though, after reading it, Im totally convinced its Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Faltigoth]

I'll go with some of my spoilery views as well, if you haven't finished Feast for Crows yet stop now:






For one, I'm fairly convinced that Sandor Clegane isn't dead, and that he has a role yet to play in things, possibly involving Sansa.

I'm also fairly convinced that his brother Gregor isn't dead, either, and that Qyburn has turned him into some kind of monster.

A Clegane showdown is something that seems to be in the works.

Speaking of people that are supposed to be dead but aren't, I think Benjen Stark is still alive and kicking north of the wall somewhere, too, but I don't think he is 'Coldhands'. I do, however, think he is working with Coldhands, and that Bran and the Reeds will meet him.

I'm not even 100% sure in my mind that Ashara Dayne, the rumored mother of Jon Snow, is even dead. When it comes to Martin, nobody's dead until you see a body. Just ask Beric Dondarrion or Catelyn Stark.

I think Littlefinger is in for a rash of shit, and he doesn't know it yet. One of the knights that Brienne runs into while looking for Sansa - one that is also looking for Sansa - shows up in Littlefinger's retinue towards the end of Feast. Whether Littlefinger knows that or not, who knows - he seems to know everything else - but I think that little bastard is going to get a surprise when he gets outplayed at the Game of Thrones by his protege, Sansa.

I also still think that whatever happened at the Tower of Joy is the key to everything. Something tells me that whatever happened there isn't exactly what we think. Like, if Lyanna gave birth there and died there, how the hell did they keep a newborn babe alive in the middle of nowhere on the outskirts of Dorne? Unless they knew she was pregnant, and had a midwife or somesuch along with them, which raises all sorts of other questions. The three best knights in the land guarding a tower in the middle of nowhere while the kingdom is in flames and the king and heir are out there fighting? It just doesn't seem right.

The new High Septon smells like the work of Varys to me. The spider does everything for the good of the realm - and he has to know that getting rid of Cersei is, indeed, the good of the realm. Perhaps Littlefinger, but he is far removed from Kings Landing. It just feels like Varys, to give Cersei the rope and letting her hang herself with it.

Another thing that will be important, I think, is what the faceless men are looking for in Oldtown at the Citadel of the Maesters. Was that Jaqen H'qar who showed up at the beginning of AFfC, taking the form of that poor bastard he wiped out in the prologue and now a bunkmate of Samwell Tarly's? That would be interesting, considering the Sam-Arya connection that started in Braavos. And since the Faceless Men are, generally, hired assassins -- who sent him there in the first place? Who would know enough about what is going on to send them there? Mance Rayder, maybe?

I also think that if and when Howland Reed makes an appearance, we are going to find out a shitload about everything.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Jon shared a midwife with Edric Dayne, who claims to Ayra in Sword of Storms that they are "milk brothers".

I also don't have a problem with the three kingsguard (actually the BEST kingsguard) being there. We know that Rhaegar didn't care a lick about swords and lances, prefering a harp and his library until one day he read a certain book and decided he was meant to be a warrior (a book of prophecy no doubt). He's not some passionate fool. He knew the child was important, more important than him or his father.

To those that don't believe that Jon is Rhaegar's, what do you see him as? Do you think he really is Eddard's bastard?

[Khorum]

SPOILERS
















Yeah, I've been converted into the whole Lyanna+Rhaegar = Jon theory. I reread the first 2 books thinking that the aDwD would come out this fall (grrr) and Bran's vision of his Ned in the crypts, with Ned being sad about failing to disclose something important about Jon. All the anecdotes about Lyanna Stark demanding Ned promise to keep a secret as she lay dying, and the whole spiel about dedicating 3 of the best knights to guard the tower of joy seem to be telegraphing the fact.

If it's true, it also leads the way for Daenerys to swoop into westeros and marry Jon, probably forcibly with her dragons in tow, which seals the Targaryen tradition of incestous marriage. There's not a lot of 'outs' that would allow Jon to break his vows to the Nightwatch, outside of the Nightwatch being disbanded/destroyed in a final battle then to have the future queen of Westoros swoop in at the last moment with her dragons and unsullied and rescue the last living Nightwatch commander from the army of undead Others.

OR Arya will paradrop in blindfolded, dualwielding flaming swords and singlehandedly massacre a hundred thousand Others with her newly-found Faceless Man training.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Was the vow not to have children or to not know a woman? I can't remember. If its not to have children he's got an out because Daenerys can't any more.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

Was the vow not to have children or to not know a woman? I can't remember. If its not to have children he's got an out because Daenerys can't any more.

Can't marry, Can't have lands or rule or a title. Pretty much excludes them from political or social reality. Unless it pertains to the care and feeding of the Wall, they can't do it under penalty of death.

They CAN know women, though, there's a lively whoring business up near the wall, forgot the town's name but the Night Watch were the biggest customers for the red light district.

[Faltigoth]

Digging for gold in Mole's Town, hehe.

I always assumed that the vow was of celibacy in the Night's Watch - that's why Jon was so torn emotionally doing it with his wildling chick, and I got the sense that the Night's Watch weren't supposed to be banging the 'hos in Mole Town but the commanders turned a blind eye to it.

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Faltigoth

Digging for gold in Mole's Town, hehe.

I always assumed that the vow was of celibacy in the Night's Watch - that's why Jon was so torn emotionally doing it with his wildling chick, and I got the sense that the Night's Watch weren't supposed to be banging the 'hos in Mole Town but the commanders turned a blind eye to it.

The vow is not to take a wife or father children... so you really shouldn't be having sex, because if you knock the girl up you broke your vows. Whose to know who fathered a particular bastard on a whore though?

There does seem to be a strong feeling that sex isn't for the Night's Watch though.

[Khorum]

Yeah Mole's Town that was it. Hell, every Night Watch character in the books have gotten their share of cooze... even Sam. That aside, I doubt Jon would have any say on whether or not he bangs Daenerys, that's entirely up to our favorite dragon queen.

I'm betting the answers will come with Bran, after his training with Coldhands, and whenever Howland Reed comes looking for his kids.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Wonder what Tyrion will tell Dany about everyone back in the westlands? (including Jon)

[Braen]

Here is something I ahve been thinking of... But haven't totally nailed down yet...

The possibility of Tyrion being a Targaryen. His hair being Lannister gold and Targaryen silver. Mismatched eyes of Lannister Green and black. His dwarfism a curse of all the inbreeding... and as we all know... there has to be three riders of the dragons. Dany, of course, Jon and Tyrion.

I came to this though because of Tywin. Why did he have Jamie kill the Mad King? He was the Kings Hand and had no love for Robert or Ned. I believe that the Mad King was the father of Tyrion. That is why Tywin turned on him and handed the throne to Robert and also why he had Gregor kill Neds sister so he could have Robert marry Cersei and give the Lannister line a hold on the throne.

This also explains a true reason why tywin said that Tyrion would never inherit Castery Rock because in truth he is a bastard and not a True-born Lannister. it also explains Tywin utter contempt for Tyrion besides that his wife died in child-birth

This would also "absolve" Tyrion of the crime of killing his father as Tywin wouldn't be his true father. And with Tyrion getting closer to Dany...

Anyway... just some thoughts... Discuss.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Braen

That is why Tywin turned on him and handed the throne to Robert and also why he had Gregor kill Neds sister so he could have Robert marry Cersei and give the Lannister line a hold on the throne.

Gregor didn't kill Ned's sister. Gregor raped and murdered Elia of Dorne, Rhaegar's wife. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Stark, and she died during childbirth (or so we assume).

[Aulirophile]

Originally Posted by Braen

I came to this though because of Tywin. Why did he have Jamie kill the Mad King?

Jamie killed him because he had had his Pyromancer hand plant Wildfire all over Kings Landing and Jamie had reached a kind of breaking point in regards to his King's insanity. Tywin had nothing to do with it, Jamie killed Aerys to save Kings Landing....

Unlike Jon there is no particular reason to believe Tyrion is anything but a Lannister. Only three things in the entire series really make an arguement. Tyrion's dreams about riding dragons, which we find out about when he tells Jon "All men are shorter then you on a dragon's back." His hair color not being the pure blonde of Lannisters, and Tywin's complete and utter lack of any acknowledgement of him as his son. Slender evidence.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Besides, plenty of characters have mentioned how Tyrion was exactly like Tywin, though neither would ever admit it.